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M.C.
1/13/2009 8:45pm,
Since I am not that into firearms (after reading this sub-forum I gathered a few bits and pieces though) I wonder, with how many types of ammunition you end up?
For instance if you own an AR, a handgun and a shot gun you are already up to three different types.
Is there a type of round that can be used in an AR(5.56 from what I gather)/AK(7.62 right?) and handgun, having good "impact power" (I hope that is the proper term) and maybe even being cheap?
Not that I would get a gun and if so could get one (not even talking about an AR/AK), call it general curiosity. :cat:

hapkido_keith
1/13/2009 9:23pm,
Is there a type of round that can be used in an AR(5.56 from what I gather)/AK(7.62 right?) and handgun, having good "impact power" (I hope that is the proper term) and maybe even being cheap?

Short answer: no

Even the mid-sized rounds used by AR's are just to big to be fired from a handgun sized platform. The rounds are physically too big to fit in a magazine that gets inserted into the grip like a standard semi auto. If you make a separate magazine port in front of the grip the weapon becomes too big and looses the advantages of a pistol (ease of carry, concealment, handling in tight quarters). You theoretically could make some kind of super revolver, but it would have limited ammo capacity and the accuracy would suck with such a short barrel. Increase barrel length and again you loose the advantages of a pistol. On top of all of this, the high power of an AR round, even the 5.56mm/.223 which is considered a small round by rifle standards, would make shooting such a pistol problematic for all but the strongest shooters.

There are several models of long arms that fire pistol sized rounds. The rounds do enjoy a bit more range and accuracy from the longer barrel, but are still too underpowered to serve effectively in the role of a tactical rifle. Bonnie and Clyde did not use the Thompson sub-machinegun, which fires the .45 ACP pistol round, because it could not punch through even the thin metal of a car door, where a sawed-off browning automatic rifle could. Even the big magnum pistol rounds like the .44 just won't have the long range punch to be effective as a rifle cartridge.

pontoon
1/13/2009 10:57pm,
Doesn't kel-tec make a number of 5.56mm pistols?

chemistry
1/15/2009 1:27pm,
There are several manufacturers who put out 5.56 mm / .223 Remington handguns. Olympic Arms, Kel Tec, and Bushmaster are three that I can think of right away.

These pistols are, as expected, much larger than ordinary pistols, and aren't going to be concealed carry material, which really negates much of the advantage of a pistol in the first place (easier concealability, less bulk).

5.56 mm rounds coming out of a rifle are effective as manstoppers, due to the fact that the bullet can fragment in soft tissue. This takes a good bit of velocity (3000+ fps). When you fire that same round from a pistol, the shorter barrel is going to result in losing a good bit of velocity, and you're going to end up with something that will simply punch a 0.224" hole in the bad guy, and exit his body as a 0.224" hole.


That being said, there are handguns that can chamber and fire much more powerful rifle cartridges, but for the most part, these are single shot weapons the likes of the Lone Eagle.

chemistry
1/15/2009 1:35pm,
effectively in the role of a tactical rifle. Bonnie and Clyde did not use the Thompson sub-machinegun, which fires the .45 ACP pistol round, because it could not punch through even the thin metal of a car door, where a sawed-off browning automatic rifle could.

Indeed! When I first read about the Bonnie and Clyde stories, I was surprised at how a small woman the likes of Bonnie Parker, could easily control the full power of a BAR.

On another note, vehicles from that time era, for certain, used much thicker metal.

The sheet metal used in today's vehicles will not stop any respectable centerfire handgun round (.32 ACP and above), unless the bullet happens to hit one of the support beams.

JRT6
1/15/2009 2:22pm,
Indeed! When I first read about the Bonnie and Clyde stories, I was surprised at how a small woman the likes of Bonnie Parker, could easily control the full power of a BAR.

On another note, vehicles from that time era, for certain, used much thicker metal.

The sheet metal used in today's vehicles will not stop any respectable centerfire handgun round (.32 ACP and above), unless the bullet happens to hit one of the support beams.


We have shot up cars and have found the doors and seats (particularly the headrest) to do quite well in stopping almost all common handgun bullets. The engine compartment and windshield goes without saying. The trunk area offers the least protection.

.223 shot out of short barrels, less than 16in, have less ballistic power than 9mm.

Wounded Ronin
1/16/2009 12:01am,
OP: What about getting a FN Five SeveN and a P90? My understanding is they accept the same cartridge.

Don Gwinn
1/16/2009 12:55am,
True. The catch is that, as you might expect, that round is a compromise.

Classic handgun/rifle/carbine combinations that share ammunition:

9mm AR15/Any 9mm handgun

Hi-Point carbine/Hi-Point handgun (Cheap and fugly, but apparently they work.)

.357 or .44 Magnum lever action carbine (Marlin, for example) with any revolver in those calibers.

Beretta "Storm" model carbines and handguns--share magazines, too.

Ruger makes pistol-caliber carbines that accept the magazines for their P-Series pistols.

For many years, it has been rumored throughout the land that GLOCK would produce a carbine built to accept GLOCK handgun magazines "next year." Like Cub fans, GLOCK fans seem incapable of counting up the number of years that have passed since they began expecting this development "next year."

I'm sure somebody can add ten things I forgot, but there's a starter list for you.

hungryjoe
1/16/2009 1:04am,
[quote=hapkido_keith]Short answer: no

Even the mid-sized rounds used by AR's are just to big to be fired from a handgun sized platform. quote]

Just to be a dick, I'm going to mention my Thompson pistol with interchangeable barrels in .22kHornet, 45 Long Colt/.410, 30/30 and 45/70.

Single shots and not natural, but a whole lot of fun.

OP - go with what you can at the moment. Soon you will become gun crazy and can get what ever your heart (or wife if married) will allow.

I will now go back and read the writings in the body of this thread and apologise if needed.

hungryjoe
1/16/2009 1:10am,
Recommended ammo for rifle/pistol:

9mm
.44 (better)
.45

Better yet - forgo the one size fits all and go with 12 gauge shotgun, .357, .40 or .45 pistol and .223 or .308 rifle. Ammo is readily available for all of these.

Would you do finishing carpentrey with a framing hammer?

CannibalCrowley
1/16/2009 1:26am,
We have shot up cars and have found the doors and seats (particularly the headrest) to do quite well in stopping almost all common handgun bullets. The engine compartment and windshield goes without saying. The trunk area offers the least protection

Box O' Truth to the rescue: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

Cy Q. Faunce
1/16/2009 4:25am,
I'm sure somebody can add ten things I forgot, but there's a starter list for you.
I can come up with some obscure examples, but very few of current manufacture or real merit.

The Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm used Smith & Wesson pistol magazines, and its .45 ACP counterpart used 1911 mags. Marlin's website doesn't show this gun in its current inventory. I have heard that it was reliable and tough.

The Armalon PC is a currently manufactured SMLE-pattern bolt-action rifle in 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and other cartridges. I'm not sure how hard it is to get them outside the UK.

The Wilkinson Arms Linda pistol and Terry carbine shared a lot of parts as well as a common chambering of 9mm. The pistol was very bulky. They haven't been made for a long time.

The Iver-Johnson Enforcer was nominally a .30 Carbine pistol, though really it was an M1 Carbine with a pistol grip. Less ridiculously, the Ruger Blackhawk single-action revolver is offered in 30 Carbine.

There were some semiauto versions of submachine guns made in carbine form to conform to US firearms laws. The Uzi carbine and HK-94 were typical examples.

I believe Tim LeGendre of LeMAG Firearms offers M1 Carbine conversions in 45 Winchester Magnum and 50 Action Express. Pair one of those up with an appropriate pistol and you might have something useful. I recall that the 50 AE prototypes developed stock cracking, but I suspect he has probably beaten that problem by now.

M.C.
1/16/2009 6:33am,
Hey thanks guys, a lot to read up on.

Thing is, even if I seriously would consider getting a gun, this is still Germany... getting one takes minimum of 1 year membership at a range, background check and other BS. Then you can get the gun but sill you are not allowed to carry. You are required to store the gun and ammunition separately in a safe(with extra locked compartment for the gun) and all kinds of things.
Oh and there is no way in hell you can get an AR/AK or anything like it in Germany.

JRT6
1/16/2009 9:44am,
Box O' Truth to the rescue: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

I don't doubt their results BUT it all depends on the the car being shot up and other things. For instance we found that hollow points pretty much fell apart through car doors and even with FMJ the windshield was dramatically changing the tragectery of the bullets upon exit. Many FMJ woould penetrate but then shed their jackets. All things considered I while wearing a vest I would rather use a car for hard cover than nothing at all all.

Cinder blocks are terrible cover, just shoot twice: once to shatter the block and the second to pass through. However our indoor range is concrete block in the safe area and we've had guys AD right into them and the bullet just took chunks out (.40 cal and the blocks were painted with industrial paint)

M.C.
1/16/2009 10:13am,
Okay, especially the page with the car makes me wonder, why people advocate using different types of hand gun rounds when the impact is considered (using the little I know and have read up on) to be all the same? And now lets assume I am not shooting car doors but "soft tissue"... Or am I missing something here?

hapkido_keith
1/16/2009 10:43am,
Just to be a dick, I'm going to mention my Thompson pistol with interchangeable barrels in .22kHornet, 45 Long Colt/.410, 30/30 and 45/70.
Are you talking about these things?
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encorePistols.php
I'm just now getting used to the recoil of my 30-30 lever action carbine after about half a dozen trips to the range, I'd hate to fire one from a pistol.

I will now go back and read the writings in the body of this thread and apologise if needed.
Apology not nessisary. If I start talking out of my ass I expect to be called on it.

Ruger makes pistol-caliber carbines that accept the magazines for their P-Series pistols.
As of 2007 they discontinued this line. I was thinking about a PC-9 last year and asked about them on this very forum. I was advised not to bother and go for a high powered round instead. I'd still like one for shits and giggles but they've become hard to find.