With the baton it is very easy, but painful beyond words. I will bring my LeBell club to the clinic on the 14th and show a few.

Unarmed its tougher. You are not going to pluck an arm out of the air and wrist lock them. It depends on what the other guy is doing.

Unarmed its tougher. You are not going to pluck an arm out of the air and wrist lock them. It depends on what the other guy is doing.

Do you think that ordinary grappling entrances would suffice? I mean arm-drags, collar ties, clinch, etc. And of course the various grips from that gi that translate to everyday clothing.

With the baton it is very easy, but painful beyond words. I will bring my LeBell club to the clinic on the 14th and show a few.

Unarmed its tougher. You are not going to pluck an arm out of the air and wrist lock them. It depends on what the other guy is doing.

Is this where the LeBell stick grappling thing comes from? Also, are the throws in Aikido substantially different than those in Judo? I know the two arts have a different JJJ liniage, but have never trained in either. Just wondering if a good Judo BB could make the stuff taught in American Aikido dojos work.

Is this where the LeBell stick grappling thing comes from? Also, are the throws in Aikido substantially different than those in Judo? I know the two arts have a different JJJ liniage, but have never trained in either. Just wondering if a good Judo BB could make the stuff taught in American Aikido dojos work.

Ok, this is going to take a bit, so sit back and relax.

First; Jujutsu to the Samuari was about two things. Getting your arms free to draw a sword (which is why there are a google of wrist grab defenses), and to a lesser extent, grappling in armor kind of things. All else is bull ****.

Second, once swords were banned, the skill set changed. Jujutsu now became about personal defense. Kano prevailed over all other schools and his method became standard.

But, what is that method? We need more of an understanding than most people have today. Kano felt gymnastics were the best form of exercise. In his "Judo" he had three kinds of "throws" in place. Throws for contest or free practice, throws for self-defense, and gymnastic throws. This begins to explain why so few of them work in Shiai. That is the key here, some of those throws will never "work" (that real fight thing) because they were never intended to. Others will only "work" when you change the motion a bit (Hiza guruma is a good example) but that change causes serious injury to your partner. So you practice it another way in the dojo, and make a slight change on the street. When you do them all you get that total health thing Kano was pushing.

Aikido, is mainly gymnastic throws with one or two self-defense throws taught in a small number of schools. The concept is not about personal protection or police restraint.

Gene's stick method is very much like the Japanese Police except Gene's is a non-impact system, you do not hit. The Japanese Police have no such restriction.

Is this where the LeBell stick grappling thing comes from? Also, are the throws in Aikido substantially different than those in Judo? I know the two arts have a different JJJ liniage, but have never trained in either. Just wondering if a good Judo BB could make the stuff taught in American Aikido dojos work.

I'm only a Judo Green Belt and Aikido Brown Belt and I've gotten Aikido techniques to work in an alive environment. Most of the time, the problem doesn't lie in the technique itself, but how the practitioner attempts to apply it. Nearly every Aikido technique is viable in the right situation, but the typical Aikido training methodology is incredibly poor at providing the skills to apply them. Take, for instance, Kote Gaeshi. This is one of my higher percentage Aikido techniques, but the way it is trained in most Aikido Dojo is completely ineffectual.

Typical Aikido Kote Gaeshi:
YouTube - Beginning Aikido Techniques : Tsuki-Kote Gaeshi Japanese Aikido Techniques (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEJsJV7OJbc)

See how Tori's elbow was on the outside of Uke's arm? That will almost never work in real life as Tori has no real control over Uke. Uke is only moving because he is "going with the technique" as per usual Aikido training.

Contrast this with a Kote Gaeshi from Shodokan Aikido:
YouTube - brighton ittaikan aikido kote gaeshi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrzDPmIxchI)

Notice any difference? Tori's elbow was on the inside of Uke's arm. This is similar to a grip for Waki Gatame and provides real control over your opponent.

Here it is in competition:
YouTube - Kote Gaeshi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXKwht_80UM)

LOL @ Aikido shia...

Here it is in competition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXKwht_80UM


If I can ask a stupid question,

What was that? If that was a competition it didn't look very, well, competitive.

Unless I'm missing something. I'm happy to be proven ignorant here. It just doesn't look like that gentleman being thrown is resisting much beyond a token level.

Minor FYI (unless you're a Tokyo Riot Poliko-Chan candidate in the middle of it): the intensive course is eleven months, not six. Anyway, carry on...

If I can ask a stupid question,

What was that? If that was a competition it didn't look very, well, competitive.

Unless I'm missing something. I'm happy to be proven ignorant here. It just doesn't look like that gentleman being thrown is resisting much beyond a token level.

Tomiki created a kind of Aikido randori/shiai concept. It didn't catch on much.

The problem with Kote Gaeshi as commonly taught is that your thumbs are not strong enough to turn a resisting persons arm over in that manner. It simply will not work.

The two on one catch is valid. Waki Gatame is right there, and works much better than the wrist twist.

Minor FYI (unless you're a Tokyo Riot Poliko-Chan candidate in the middle of it): the intensive course is eleven months, not six. Anyway, carry on...

I must have missed someone saying that. Actually I have no idea how long it is. I was only there for 30 days and they took me all over the place. I really don't remember what they said the training lengths were.

I do know where you were meant how skilled you were. As I recall, and likely I will mess this up, but like a beat cop was lower on the ladder than a subway cop. Riot people were near the top with the Airport guys being the highest run on the ladder (they are armed all the time).

If I messed it up, someone will correct me.

Tomiki created a kind of Aikido randori/shiai concept. It didn't catch on much.

The problem with Kote Gaeshi as commonly taught is that your thumbs are not strong enough to turn a resisting persons arm over in that manner. It simply will not work.

The two on one catch is valid. Waki Gatame is right there, and works much better than the wrist twist.

Okay, I'm off to go check out Tomiki Aikido a little more closely so I don't make this mistake again. Thanks for clarifying.

Tomiki created a kind of Aikido randori/shiai concept. It didn't catch on much.

The problem with Kote Gaeshi as commonly taught is that your thumbs are not strong enough to turn a resisting persons arm over in that manner. It simply will not work.

The two on one catch is valid. Waki Gatame is right there, and works much better than the wrist twist.

Off topic but, I was taught, in the beginning to use the hand/wrist for kote gaeshi. But as time passed and I trained more, it turned into being done by manipulating the forearm (ulna and radius) and to just skip the wrist part.

As far as Yoshinkan and Tokyo Police training, I know, first hand, that those guys are hardcore. I don't think I would last very long in that program. I stopped training in Aikido a nubmer of years ago because I got tired of uke always going along with the technique. Hell, people would fall over before I had even done anything or locked them up. So, I decided to focus on other things.

I have done some baton training before, not to the extent that they do it. But, it's really fun stuff. Nothing like being locked and thrown with a hard baton against your arm bones to wake you up. Some of the stuff I got to dabble in is/was also taught to MP's for restraint-type situations. Like comming up behind someone (possibly drunk or doing something they shouldn't be doing) with a baton and sticking it between their legs (you're holding the baton in the center) and turning it sideways against the front of their thighs and lifting it into their groin while you push into them with your shoulder. It literally lifts them up off the ground and onto their face.

FUN!

Yep, all stuff I was taught, and felt first hand.

I hear you on the non-resistance thing. I was teaching a group of Aikido people once, and anytime I took them by the hand they flew into the air and then raved about my "ki power."

Too silly for me.....