Ming Loyalist speaks the truth. I would like to shamelessly promote my Baji Blog over in the CMA forums which is inconsistently chronicling my attempts to use Baji and only Baji when sparring against an MMA/Muay Thai striker.

From a striking standpoint Ming is correct, it's a matter of their training methods. You would need to crosstrain grappling.

See, therein lies the problem. I don't believe in reverse engineering, rehabilitation, hidden arts, or anything else you can come up with.

Basically, you train to fight alive or you are stuck in dead patterns.


QFT, as always.

I've always wondered what the hell was up with the kid that I sparred with that did tai chi and kept hitting me with kicks, wrists, and elbows?

That did not look like tai chi to me, more like an asskicking.

So, can tai chi and wrist strikes be effective in astriking situation and what is the % of good combat based tai chi schools?

but i have been doing CMA for a long time, and am not under the illusion that fighting resembles forms.

That's is why I commented on bias.




If that's true, I'd say the functional version of the art would have to be pretty damn close to the original before anyone could claim victory for the style.

MT incorporated boxing footwork and hand skills. So, no victory for MT?

well, i have personally seen tai chi and wing chun on the lei tai that looked like tai chi and wing chun

Hmm. That's cool. Was this San Shou era or earlier?

Does this mean you think that a Hsing-I school that trained for lei tai full contact fights would produce people who could win fights with Hsing-I

Mike Patterson won full-contact fights in the 1970s using xing-i, and his students have been winning lei tei and san shou events with it ever since. There are videos of them doing so in the CMA sub-forum.

The answer to the larger question you're asking: fighting looks like fighting, and you're likely to see similarities between the punches, kicks and throws of styles that regularly spar hard and compete in full contact matches. What you'll see that's different between them is the default fight strategy/preferred range, and thus a preference for a different subset of techniques (dirty boxing + throws for taiji, for example).

Hmm. That's cool. Was this San Shou era or earlier?

don't know what you mean by the san shou "era"

san shou and lei tai have been terms that have been used in CMA for a very long time. the ring sport of san shou/sanda is fairly recent but still goes back to at least the late 80's (i think - someone correct me if i'm wrong.)

to answer your question, i have been attending the baltimore lei tai since 2002, fought once (got my ass kicked badly) and have trained fighters for it and cornered them on 3 occasions since then. each time i have seen both great and shitty examples of most styles of kung fu.

i have seen tai chi fighters do very well, partially because throws are given a lot of points on the lei tai, and most good tai chi seems to focus on clinching and throwing.

the wing chun guys i have seen have actually used chain punches and those weird push kicks to the shin using the sole of the foot that they train. some of them have made it work, some have gotten their asses kicked. but they DID step up on the platform and fight the way they trained.

He's trying to pigeon-hole the time frame.

Yes, many schools started worrying about forms. Not all schools but, money, wushu, and movies hurt CMA's appearance.

don't know what you mean by the san shou "era"

san shou and lei tai have been terms that have been used in CMA for a very long time. the ring sport of san shou/sanda is fairly recent but still goes back to at least the late 80's (i think - someone correct me if i'm wrong.)

the wing chun guys i have seen have actually used chain punches and those weird push kicks to the shin using the sole of the foot that they train. some of them have made it work, some have gotten their asses kicked. but they DID step up on the platform and fight the way they trained.

Sorry, San Shou era = Sport San Shou era (1994-)

I would LOVE to see that ****. The Boston San Shou scene is very MT and boxing influenced for striking, due to Jason Yee's influence. A lot like China's pro San Da guys. I wish the TCMA guys had a lei tai thing going on. Do you have any tapes?

Sorry, San Shou era = Sport San Shou era (1994-)


There is no Era per se, you are talking about popularity.

There is no Era per se, you are talking about popularity.

No, I mean the onset of uniform rules, equipment, and sanctioning. Not trying to argue that there were no lei fights before that, or that the term San Shou was used to describe them. I was just wondering as to whether these fights were under modern (say USSKFF) rules and scoring, or were they more like Taiji-Tudo? Thanks.

Mike Patterson won full-contact fights in the 1970s using xing-i, and his students have been winning lei tei and san shou events with it ever since. There are videos of them doing so in the CMA sub-forum.


Awesome, thanks!

No, I mean the onset of uniform rules, equipment, and sanctioning.

See here (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1512429&postcount=75) for more information about san shou v san da. I fought in my first full-contact CMA-rules match in 1987.

See here (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1512429&postcount=75) for more information about san shou v san da. I fought in my first full-contact CMA-rules match in 1987.

You have totally got my attention with this. Were these matches part of a sport (y'know with a governing body or some such), or part of TMA competitions? Please feel free to go on and on about this [buys JR beer].

Sorry, San Shou era = Sport San Shou era (1994-)

I would LOVE to see that ****. The Boston San Shou scene is very MT and boxing influenced for striking, due to Jason Yee's influence. A lot like China's pro San Da guys. I wish the TCMA guys had a lei tai thing going on. Do you have any tapes?

i have some footage of my guys fighting, but i don't think it would be what you want to see, and i also don't think they want to have their fights up on youtube. i never taped the tai chi or wing chun guys as i was trying to save tape/battery for my own fighters.

they sell a DVD of the event every year, but i don't know if your interest level is high enough to spend money on a DVD.

this is their website http://www.usksf.org/

here are some lei tai fights i found on youtube, i'm not sure if this is going to be what you want to see though.

from 2002 (no idea who is fighting but a good one)
YouTube - Round 1 of a Lei Tai Match (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITfXEFH2G6U)



this is from 2008, the guy in blue is the one who beat me like a red headed stepchild back in 2002
YouTube - Combate Jose A. Irizarry USCKF Kung Fu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcPjt54sEiE)



in this one, the guy in blue is from my (extended) kung fu family.
YouTube - Kuo shu 2008 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRQsKCc5U7Q)



here's a heavily edited highlight reel from some chunners (make of it what you will, i don't see as much chun in their fights as others i have seen but this is on youtube.)
YouTube - Wing Chun (TWC) 2007 Lei Tai teaser (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aue6bIplPwI)



here's some footage from the world championships
YouTube - Taiwan 2004 Lei Tai (擂台) World Championship (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpviclkMdfc)



now, you may not see what you were looking for, but that may have a lot more to do with that you expect kung fu to look like, than these people "fighting like MT fighters."

All of these are contained within this thread:
Here's all the full contact Kung Fu! - No BS Martial Arts (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72258)

Except the 2008 video but, it will be soon.

Since this is a now serious thread back to the CMA forum.