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100xobm
9/17/2008 6:11am,
Anyone got any experience with Tomiki/Shodokan in particular? Or should I just give up on my dreams of wasting dudes while looking like a rhythmic gymnast in baggy pants?

My question is basically, being that Tomiki aikido is competitive and has randori (which looks like sloppy judo to me to be honest), Is it effective or just lipstick on an asshole? I've always had high hopes for wristlocks but I haven't ever seen them performed in a sparring environment (outside of ne-waza).

I'd really like to do it at the very least to just get another two hours of sparring a week, at most to be able to pull an effective kote gaeshi. But I'd take it only if it's actually going to work.

Anyones thoughts appreciated as the search function just says "I hate Aikido" a million times.

Fitz
9/17/2008 6:29am,
No magic pants for Tomiki Aikido for the most part. You'll find some of it in the kata at the higher level, but that's mainly for historical purposes.

If you've been doing BJJ and Judo you should be able to integrate Tomiki Aikido pretty quickly. Mention to the instructor about your background but try to focus upon using what you are learning in class initially rather then throwing everything you know at people.

1point2
9/17/2008 7:40am,
Tomiki aikido sparring is weird to say the least. It's randori, but with a designated uke and tori.

The attacks and defenses, while freeform, are restricted to certain kinds. Attacker must perform a "straight thrust with full commitment" to an area on the chest or something, and the defender can only use specific Aikido techniques, with control.

It ends up looking semi-compliant, thereby losing the benefit of compliant techniques while not gaining the benefits of true randori.

Personally, Angry White Pyjamas sold me on hard-style Yoshinkan Aikido. Is there a school of Tomiki near you? Maybe you'll like it.

Fitz
9/17/2008 10:45am,
Tomiki aikido sparring is weird to say the least. It's randori, but with a designated uke and tori.

Only for the Tanto-randori. Unarmed it is open season.

1point2
9/17/2008 11:30am,
Damn, Fitz, you are owning me all over the site these days.

Last time I researched Tomiki (last year?), I only found tanto randori. What's the deal with unarmed? Is it widespread? What's the ruleset?

Munacra
9/17/2008 12:29pm,
I have a Green Belt in Tomiki Aikido. So basically the randori is not very randori-ish, by which I mean, it has an Uke and a Tori, so the victor is already predetermined. The Uke has the ability to use whatever attack he wants, and the Tori has the ability to use whatever technique he was.

Otherwise, it's same old shitty Aikido you see everywhere. Only uglier.

Fitz
9/17/2008 1:19pm,
Run a search for "toshu randori" in Google Video and you should find a few clips. It tends to look like really extensive/boring gripfighting in Judo until someone catches the other person just right. It was the original randori form for Shodokan Aikido. Tomiki Sensei later added the tanto randori because too often Aikidoka would keep waiting for the other person to attack.

The basic techniques used in Shodokan Randori can be seen at

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10.html

The rule-set prevents too much grabbing of the Gi but otherwise it is similar to Judo tachiwaza in terms of points for controlled throws. You can find the full ruleset at

http://www.tomiki.org/rules.html

1point2
9/17/2008 2:19pm,
Maybe we can address the root of the OP question.

What do you want? Aikido? Effective wristlocks? Circular movement at a distance?

100xobm
9/18/2008 1:41am,
Well, my goal isn't to go in and moneyshot everyone with my JudoSkillz, because I'm not convinced that Aikido sucks as much as this site tries to tell me, so I'm intending on keeping my nose clean and my wang rolled up.

My question was, how does it relate to other styles of aikido in terms of realistic training methods, applicability, and so on?

I read angry white pyjamas myself and quite liked it, but there's no yoshinkan where I looked. The other local stuff is filled with senseis who I, in all honesty, could take apart. Because they all thought someone was going to stand still and not headbutt them when they went in for shihonage or something.

Fitz
9/18/2008 12:48pm,
My question was, how does it relate to other styles of aikido in terms of realistic training methods, applicability, and so on?

You'll learn more effective timing and distance then you will in most Aikido schools and will have a relatively easy time integrating what you are learning into the skillsets you already have. The knife-work is not realistic at all nor is it meant to be. The idea there is to force one person to attack and the other to defend. It will get you moving and may spark an interest in learning more realistic knifework down the line.

Much of what you will learn early on will involve controling the attackers spine, starting from the neck and working down the trunk (the atemi waza on the linked page). After that you'll probably start to integrate the wrist locks. While different schools have different approaches you'll hopefully have a chance to work on all of this in regular randori, showing you when things work and when they don't and getting a better sense of what will work in a given situation.

Give it a few classes, see what you think of the instructor and the students and then make up your mind as to how well it would integrate into your current training.

Tom Kagan
9/18/2008 5:57pm,
No Tomiki thread can be complete without some Achy Breaky Tomiki line dancing.
YouTube - Aikido Line Dancing or "Achy Breaky Aikido" by Bullshido.net (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=990kdheTIOY)

Fitz
9/18/2008 7:50pm,
You can see the original version of the LIne Dance in

YouTube - Aikido Tomiki Kenji sensei 合気道 富木謙治先生 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8)

The things people come up with while they're in a prison cell, I sware...

golsa
9/19/2008 8:43pm,
I have a Green Belt in Tomiki Aikido. So basically the randori is not very randori-ish, by which I mean, it has an Uke and a Tori, so the victor is already predetermined. The Uke has the ability to use whatever attack he wants, and the Tori has the ability to use whatever technique he was.

Otherwise, it's same old shitty Aikido you see everywhere. Only uglier.

That isn't quite right, but you're close. If this is tanto randori we're talking about there technically isn't uke and tori, but instead we call them toshu (defender) and tanto (guy holding the, well, tanto).

Tanto earns points by stabbing toshu with the knife or throwing him with one of the 5 atemi waza techniques.

Toshu earns his points by using any of the 17 randori techniques to throw, joint lock, or pin tanto. He can also earn points by removing the weapon from tanto's hand. The point earning potential is biased towards the tanto position.

After the 1.5 minute round the two Aikidoka switch roles.

In some ways I understand why people might confuse tanto randori with koka level Judo, but remember in tanto randori your objective really isn't to get the other guy on his back. This is the goal of the 5 atemi waza techniques, but for most of the others you're doing the waza wrong if the guy lands on his back. Aikido pins virtually always result in uke being face down on the ground. Don't forget that Shodokan also allows standing joint locks to be driven to the ground - something you won't see in Judo.

Rather than points being 100% scored based on the position in which the person was thrown, instead scoring a bit more on the quality of the technique and maintaining posture through the technique. E.g., a technique performed as a sacrifice technique is worth less points than one done with proper upright posture and control. This is a point modern Judo might do well to learn from given the sloppy patty-cake, floor flopping, and getting a koka and then avoiding fighting that we've seen in Judo lately :protest:

edit: I've also heard about some proposed changes, which may have been implemented or discarded by now, that involve tanto being allowed to use all 17 randori waza in tanto randori.

kumiuchi
9/23/2008 5:51pm,
No Tomiki thread can be complete without some Achy Breaky Tomiki line dancing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=990kdheTIOY

Now that was damned funny! :laughing9

EDIT:

I did some Tomiki as a kid and we had to do that Taisabaki dosa as one of our warmups.