Right, so...

We have this book full of verses purportedly howled by an archangel to a man in a seventh-century middle-eastern cave.

This book is supposed to be the eternal divinely-rendered unchangeable set of rules for all mankind for all time.

Or...it is the divinely-rendered set of rules given to a group of desert tribal faithful in a particular part of the world at a particular time (the aforementioned seventh century).

Since this desert tome cannot logically be both eternally-applicable and situationally-specific, I'll happily go by the latter. That being the case, none of the supposedly-divine rules will apply to me for the simple reason that I'm not a seventh-century middle-eastern desert dweller.

But at least I'll know when the world is about to end: "pregnant camels will be neglected".

Thanks for that...and we'll ignore the camels which have--for a century at least--been bearing young, totally unassisted, in the Great Western Desert of Australia.

If the koran is such a magic book why doesn't it include its own situational context?

If the koran is such a magic book why doesn't it include its own situational context?

To promote study and scholarship amongst its people. Muslims were the major innovators in the 10th-12th centuries... that is until politics and infighting got in the way.

People are people... give them half a chance they will try kill each other/ screw the other person over.

If the koran is such a magic book why doesn't it include its own situational context?

Also there are thousands of books on the subject... you can easily find out more by studying.

Just because I haven't replied to the original topic of this thread.



The creationist hypothesis is scientifically illiterate. The fact that these people can't even tell the difference between basic scientific jargon like theory and hypothesis is evidence of that.


Gods! That part in Dawkins' movie where the jewish guy says " Why is it called the theory of evolution and not the fact of evolution?" That **** just drove me up the wall

Btw has anyone here trained at eastwest hapkido or eagle hapkido academy in toronto?

Two of the best hapkido dojangs around apparently, I'm planning on joining east west which is right next to U of T where I study.

Btw has anyone here trained at eastwest hapkido or eagle hapkido academy in toronto?

Two of the best hapkido dojangs around apparently, I'm planning on joining east west which is right next to U of T where I study.

Dannish, try taking this question to the Martials Arts Investigations section instead of here. Trust me people will be much easier on you if post things in the right place.


Also, not many people here think all that highly of Hapkido.

LOL c'mon you dont want to learn...hell even your style field tells us that.

Zap, most of the time I am interested in learning about alternitive viewpoints, However that dosent mean that I have to then believe they have any substance to them. People are curious animals. Some moreso than others.
For some, the statement "This book was authored by God and co-authored by prophets and unquestionably says God made man, the universe, the stars and everything else, we don't know why" is an adequate explanation. For others it unfortuantely is not.

To promote study and scholarship amongst its people. Muslims were the major innovators in the 10th-12th centuries... that is until politics and infighting got in the way.

People are people... give them half a chance they will try kill each other/ screw the other person over.

So 800+ years ago...what happened to the study and scholarship, I mean, where are the fruits of that divine plan?

Btw has anyone here trained at eastwest hapkido or eagle hapkido academy in toronto?

Two of the best hapkido dojangs around apparently, I'm planning on joining east west which is right next to U of T where I study.

The best thing to do would be to go to a throwdown near you. that way you get a good showcase of different martial arts, And you can have a small informal sparring or training session with some of the ones you think you like. But yeah its best to discuss this in maybe the throwdown forum.

Hey Daanish most hapkido is kinda silly, most people here recommend things like Olympic sports (wrestling, judo, boxing) or sports like MMA, thai boxing, kickboxing. For more info post in newbietown or YMAS.

Tyrsman: I hear you on that. I've come to the conclusion that there aren't people who "believe" or "disbelieve" in evolution, there are just people that understand it and people that don't. Often the poor way it is taught in school is to blame, but it's not without a social pretext. In the US, two thirds of people believe humans and animals came about by magic spells 6000 years ago. There's a lot of funny ideas about evolutionary theory out there like "monkeys turning into people" which indicate the basic concept, which can apply to many systems isn't understood: reproduction with mutation under a selection pressure.

But some religions are still in the dark ages about more than just evolution. What about how whenever there's a hurricane some religious dicksmack says that god sent the hurricane to punish sin. That's straight dark ages mentality.

Daanish, I pointed out to you previously that they use the original Arabic koran in Saudi Arabia and they interpret it as it says. You responded by saying that they don't have t3h r34l Islam. (which is funny because that's the birthplace of Islam and the location of the two most holy sites.) You also just said that the koran does not contain its own historical context so that people would study more. Surely allah would have realised that people would take the koran "as is" and lead to incredible barbarity and persecution?

Did he reason that the all the stonings of adulterous women, execution of apostates and homosexuals, the wife-beating and the jihads were worth it? Let me put this too you Daanish; have all the horrors perpetuated by muslims been worth it to encourage you to study?

You want to know what would make the koran better? You open it up and it has no words printed on it but holographic images pop out of it in 3d and it speaks directly into your mind. Now that's what I'd call a magic book.

Edit: let me rephrase that. You want to know what would make the koran better? You open it up and it has no words printed on it.

Edit: let me rephrase that. You want to know what would make the koran better? You open it up and it has no words printed on it.

Hey Virus, do you think then that we would be better of without religious texts, without churches and religious beliefs?

I undrestand the stupidity of these belief systems but I think it gives many people purpose, and also encourages people to do good things (even with selfish motives).

Daanish, Take up Thai Boxing if you want to learn how to strike.

Libertad: Religion does indeed inspire people to do good. No question about that. But also inspires harm. I don't think you need religion to inspire the good, but I think many of the bad things people do require religion. For instance, would Jews think to mutilate a baby boy's penis if they didn't think it was commanded in a magic book written by a celestial wizard? Would homosexuals be persecuted in the middle east if the Koran said "If someone's gay, that's their business." Would there be an opposition to stem cell research if there wasn't this silly idea embryos having magic ghosts in them?

Would the people that do good in the name of their religion say "No god? Time to start raping and pillaging!" if they found out there are no celestial dictators waiting to punish them with hell?

Daanish, I pointed out to you previously that they use the original Arabic koran in Saudi Arabia and they interpret it as it says. You responded by saying that they don't have t3h r34l Islam. (which is funny because that's the birthplace of Islam and the location of the two most holy sites.) You also just said that the koran does not contain its own historical context so that people would study more. Surely allah would have realised that people would take the koran "as is" and lead to incredible barbarity and persecution?

Did he reason that the all the stonings of adulterous women, execution of apostates and homosexuals, the wife-beating and the jihads were worth it? Let me put this too you Daanish; have all the horrors perpetuated by muslims been worth it to encourage you to study?

You want to know what would make the koran better? You open it up and it has no words printed on it but holographic images pop out of it in 3d and it speaks directly into your mind. Now that's what I'd call a magic book.

Edit: let me rephrase that. You want to know what would make the koran better? You open it up and it has no words printed on it.

Firstly there is only one Quran... its Arabic... and how it is translated into other laguages differ. Secondly while many scholarly places have the right idea... Saudi Arabia (aside from Meccah and Medinah) is largely considerd a joke in the educated Muslim community (I would know, I am a muslim). How can a country which calls itself the 'KINGDOM' of saudi arabia be a standard bearer for muslim values WHEN THERE IS NO CONCEPT OF A KINGDOM IN ISLAM? It is hypocrisy of the highest order.

My study has been worth it because I have met true muslims through my studies, and these are the people who are supposed to be the standard bearers of Islam. Unfortunately they are largely in the minority.

'Did he reason that the all the stonings of adulterous women, execution of apostates and homosexuals, the wife-beating and the jihads were worth it? Let me put this too you Daanish; have all the horrors perpetuated by muslims been worth it to encourage you to study?'

You're pointing this out as if Muslims are the cause of all the problems in the world. People have the ability to choose between right and wrong. Throw extreme poverty and conditions into the mix and that line gets blurred very quickly. Half the atrocities commited by muslims in poverty stricken countries out of desperation.

The bottom line is Islam was created as a system which if followed would raise humans above barbaric and uncivilised behaviour. Unfortunately the intended message has degenerated to the point where people are not sure what to believe anymore. But that doesnt take away the good things muslims have done. You point out all the inhumane acts caused by muslims because that is all your shown in the media... never have I seen anything good portrayed about muslims, and its not because there isnt any, there is plenty... but fear and hate sells alot better than peace and love. You say women are subjugated... instead of relying on the news why dont you go ask a muslim woman yourself? All the muslim women I know are independent, with no boundaries set. They wear the hijab and do whatever else a muslim woman is supposed to do because they know that way they maintain their sense of dignity, respect and self confidence.

Humans will be humans... if its not religion that causes them to kill it will be something else, just saying ' I am a Muslim' doesnt suddenly imbue one with supernatural willpower and an ability to be the perfect human being. It is alot harder to be a good muslim in todays world where temptation runs riot. Humans have found the need to kill and maim each other even before organised religion. How many innocent poeple have died in Afghanistan and Iraq due to the American invasion? How many people died in georgia when russia invaded? Were those caused by muslims too? Religion is just a pretense for corrupted people to further their own agenda. The intelligent control the weak by manipulating them, using what the weak hold dearest, relgion. You say how can this possibly happen? My nanny who brought me in Bangladesh, as far back as I can remember, was the most religious person I knew. She would be praying all day and all night. But she has never read a single word of the Quran. This is the case for millions and millions of people.

You have to understand that the way muslims see it, God is supposed to be a source of strength, he wont directly influence us with his powers or whatever. But the directions we are supposed to follow have been given to us, and if everyone followed even half of what the Quran says the world would be alot better off.

As for what would make the Quran better, it cannot be better. I wont be able to convince you otherwise so I wont try, neither will I be able to prove to you that God exsts, and neither will you ever be able to prove to me that God doesnt exist. All Im trying to say is dont bash muslims for what you see on the television and what you read in the newspaper. That is not islam.

Btw the hapkido dojang here is run by Grandmaster Hwang In Shik. Hes a badass.

Libertad: Religion does indeed inspire people to do good. No question about that. But also inspires harm. I don't think you need religion to inspire the good, but I think many of the bad things people do require religion. For instance, would Jews think to mutilate a baby boy's penis if they didn't think it was commanded in a magic book written by a celestial wizard? Would homosexuals be persecuted in the middle east if the Koran said "If someone's gay, that's their business." Would there be an opposition to stem cell research if there wasn't this silly idea embryos having magic ghosts in them?

Would the people that do good in the name of their religion say "No god? Time to start raping and pillaging!" if they found out there are no celestial dictators waiting to punish them with hell?

Mutilate? You mean circumcision? Thats been scientifically proven to be more hygienic than non circumcision.

The Quran says homosexuality is wrong, but it doesnt say 'persecute the homos' either... once again thats based off a hadith. There have been recent moevements in Islam to provide a support system for homosexuals to help them through whatever they need help with.

Maybe people wouldnt say its time to start raping and pillaging, but religion certainly gives the people that extra impetus to be good. Religion also helps keep one away from immoral behaviour.

What is immoral behaviour? That is open for discussion.

Also Islam is quite open on stem cell research as long as the fetus is before the 4th month or something... I can't remember exactly.