Greetings,

This is a serious inquiry about tai chi and push hands. It is directed at those who do the tai chi that looks a lot like Greco wresting to me and not the hippy stuff.

I am a 54 y.o. bjj player with bad knees. My stand up game right now is very defensive and to be honest I am not bad at playing a defensive game. I was looking at adding some move aggressive techniques to it which has lead me to this forum. Because of my knees my shooting style takedowns suck.

My one training partner is a Judo brown belt, so I have picked up a decent grip fighting game from him. After seeing some of the vids here showing aggressive push hands I was looking at some old books of mine on tai chi, I was wondering if there is a way I could incorporate some of the basic foot work in the forms into takedowns/throws. Using this approach the footwork seemed to make sense from a push-pull throw perspective and didn’t bother my knees as much as other things I have tried.

Not really sure what I am asking other than from a tai chi perspective does this make sense or am I viewing the moves too much from a Judo/BJJ/Wrestling outlook?

Oh, yeah, I always thought that visualizing the ball and holding in your hands was a bunch of mystic crap until I started playing with these types of throws. After achieving a good grip on my opponent’s gi when I tried the throw my hands move in the same ball, or steering, wheel pattern to complete the throw.

Any insights, comments or even a “you’re nuts it, wasn’t designed for that” would be appreciated.

My goal is to try to incorporate the footwork into some basic solo drills I could do at home. I’ll work the throws in class to see how it goes against resistance and what needs to be fine tuned.

Thanks.
Mike.

Taiji isn't great on the knees. Actually, when done properly it doesn't put too much pressure on the knees, but it generally gets done wrong a lot before one manages to do it right.

A lot of the taiji footwork works because of foundational practice -- the standing and such that develops the ability to keep weight on the heels while shifting it from one leg to another, and the stretching and development of the hip region (while also moving the waist more than the hips when actually playing tui shou).

The ball thing works, sure. You're probably not using the footwork to the full extent it was designed to be used, but there are plenty of flexible people who have a natural knack for this sort of thing. Put up a vid if you can?

Thanks for the response. Rather than pivot on the foot I am doing some small steps to acheive the spin without stressing the knee. Basically what I have been doing so far is a step forward and push (bow step?), pivot with a small step on my back foot and do a pull/snapdown. So-so results so far but I think it is more due to a lack of skill on my part rather the the move. I caught it right one time and had his back in a flash.

edit: Oh, yeah, what do you think of extracting particular foot work movements out of the form and drilling them in isolation? Thanks.

edit: Oh, yeah, what do you think of extracting particular foot work movements out of the form and drilling them in isolation? Thanks.

People drill stuff out of the form all the time -- heck, the forms have repetitions of important stuff so that the important/useful/high percentage stuff gets practiced more than other material. There are also all sorts of drills which are similar to form movements.

The real issue is practicing particular movements without sinking one's weight properly or developing the the body-method the moves are designed to take advantage of. That's what turns that one-time-it-worked stuff into a high-percentage tactic. There's often a lot more going on than can be easily seen just by looking at a picture (this is part of why very credulous people believe in chi as some sort of magical force field being shot out of the limbs).

I agree. What I am hoping is things like keeping your balance, upsetting your opponents balance, and dropping the hips (sinking?) would be similar across the arts.

Tell ya what, give me a little time expermenting here and I'll give a full report back. At this point I am not ready to post videos of my awesomeness yet.

I don't want to be another DTT. On the other hand in another month, if I have some success you mayl see me on youtube in my backyard school teaching takedowns to tai chi noob. :-)

I'm younger -- 36 yo -- and have healthy knees, so it might be different for you, but I've been able to toss a bunch of judo/BJJ guys with taiji throws during randori.

As for pulling steps/techniques from the form to practice in them in isolation, all indications are that this is how taiji players trained for most of the history of the system.

You'd probably do better with a bit of hands-on help from someone familiar with the applications. Are you near Philly? There's a guy there who trains with Chen Bing (guy from recent videos), Chen Xiao-Wang and Ren Guang-yi who could definitely help you figure out the techniques (Michael Rosario Graycar, 610.304.9088).

In any case, please keep us updated on this experiment...

I'm younger -- 36 yo -- and have healthy knees, so it might be different for you, but I've been able to toss a bunch of judo/BJJ guys with taiji throws during randori.

As for pulling steps/techniques from the form to practice in them in isolation, all indications are that this is how taiji players trained for most of the history of the system.

You'd probably do better with a bit of hands-on help from someone familiar with the applications. Are you near Philly? There's a guy there who trains with Chen Bing (guy from recent videos), Chen Xiao-Wang and Ren Guang-yi who could definitely help you figure out the techniques (Michael Rosario Graycar, 610.304.9088).

In any case, please keep us updated on this experiment...


Thanks, I am near Philly but with my current schedule I won't be getting over there in the near future. If there is anyone in the Blackwood / Turnersville area of South Jersey I could talk to that would be great.

I would be glad to keep people up to date with this if they are interested. I have class tonight and we'll see how it goes...

The applications are not from the form. The form is from the applications. The form is an exercise routine reverse-engineered from applications deliberately exaggerated so you get the right kind of stretch and gentle lower-body strengthening.

Just back from class. I can see that working the footwork and pivoting from the waist could help a lot with my game.

I know what I am doing is not 'real' tai chi, but the concepts were worthwhile. I pulled off one sloppy throw while rolling and was a lot more aggressive with my stand up the whole class. I think I am going to keep trying to work this for a while and see how it goes. The push pull techniques combined with the footwork did a lot at keep my rolling partner off balance and not being able to set up their take downs.

Any other advice would be welcome.

Thanks.

BTW, if your think this thread is so wrong feel free to not post. kthxbye.

Rubbish

"For example, they never practiced more than two or three form or movements in sequence, in order to develop fighting skill and gongfu, and they never linked more than five forms [ the article clarifies that by 'form' he means 'posture,' not sequence ] together. There were no such things as the 24 or 85 or 108 form Taijiquan. Only two or three forms at a time were used for the solo practice of gongfu." -- Yang Fukui (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1517729&postcount=1)

This is the same thing I've heard from all the best CMA coaches I've met. Sorry if it upsets you for some reason...

From practicing both Judo and Taiji, i can say that there are many similarities. The footwork is similar for throws. I have found that, for me, the center of balance in judo moves A LOT more than in Taiji, which seems to feel more stable. Also, in Taiji the arms always seem "connected" to the body in a different way, in that they move in concert with the body. In judo, for certain movements, this concept is incorrect. In Judo I find my arms isolated from my body many times. Not saying either is better, just different.
I have found that stance training from taiji has made me harder to throw. not invincible, mind you but less susceptible to being pulled or pushed off balance.

Also, have you tried any Bagua? the footwork and throws in that are really interesting.

Um, with resisting partners and stuff, in a almost entirely un-scripted manner.

Are you still stuck in the thinking that TCC is the hand form and all training must derive from the hand form?

Sequences are almost a 100% waste of time, once you are past a very low ability level and only become relevant if they are easily applicable, if you can add a level of spontaneity and if you have a sliding scale of resistance that can change it from a dance back into training.
For example, a boxer hitting pads with a scripted sequence with a good coach holding the mits will have a very different experience than a TCC player who has taken four steps from the form to practice repeatedly.

Individual moves, the above applies. And one step sparring becomes lame after a very short period of time.

What the hell do you think I am doing during my BJJ practice? Except it is not "mostly" unscripted, it is entirely unscripted. Maybe you are unfamiliar with BJJ training techniques?

Looking at the footwork as it was shown in the form made sense to me. It looked like something I could work on to improve my takedown defense and set ups. As a former competitive wrestler I used to do footwork drills on my own to improve my ability to use them during matches. I'm sure you understand, based on your posts, that having good footwork without the need to think about it is essential to good take downs. This allows you to focus on what your opponent is doing, not "where should my feet be now".

As I said my knees don't allow me to do good shots against people who have any sort of grappling experience. I can't do the bang the knee type drives that I used to do when I wrestled in high school.

Lumbering football/rugby tackles are not my cup of tea either and against people, even white belts, who know what their doing you might as well as hang a sign around your neck that says guillotine me.

Based on my limited experience on the mat trying this footwork and concepts ( 2 classes so far and limited shadow drilling at home) I have already noticed a difference.

If you can give some advice that would help I would appreciate it, it sounds like you have used it in a realistic environment.

And to be honest, I don't give a rat's a$$ about learning the form.

Can you describe the footwork you mean from form, what kind of stepping have you found useful and been a new insight for you ?

from what you've written i can't see what would be much of a revelation to you from the form. Personally i would think moving step push hands patterns would be a better place to look for footwork you are after than form.

Can you describe the footwork you mean from form, what kind of stepping have you found useful and been a new insight for you ?

from what you've written i can't see what would be much of a revelation to you from the form. Personally i would think moving step push hands patterns would be a better place to look for footwork you are after than form.

Good question. Considering my last competitive wrestling match was in 1971 a lot of the foot work I used was at best a dim memory. What came back quickly was keeping my balance, low center of gravity, don't cross your feet and step and drag. A fair amount of the footwork for single and double leg takedowns came back quickly but my knees said no way.

So, I am now working more of a clinch and sweep/throw type of game which to be honest I did not use as a folk style wrestler. There were a couple of vids showing what I would call serious push hands competitions. I thought that looked useful. I went to old tai chi books I had and was looking at the form. I ignored what they were doing with the hands but look at the stances and the transitions from stance to stance. In particular bow stance and parting the horses mane.

This looked to me as a grappler as a push to unbalance with a quick pull and transition of weight from the front foot to the rear foot with a twisting motion with the waist/hips.

I played around with doing a drill where I was in a neutral clinch type stance, feet side by side. Step forward with one foot while pushing with the hands. (bow stance) and then pivoting my body and shifting my weight to my back foot, which become my front foot from the pivot. I worked this a several times a day.

Last night in class I was in a clinch, left hand grabbing my opponents gi near the shoulder and an under hook with my right hand. I stepped forward with the left foot, pivoted the right foot to point towards the left and then stepped back quickly with the left. I ended up with a take down and side control against some one I usually have a lot of trouble taking down.

Again, I don't consider myself to be doing Tai Chi or push hands. I am just picking up some basic clinch grappling footwork and unbalancing skills. Oh yeah the guy I took down has a brown belt in Judo.

The footwork in the form seems clearer and more isolated than what I have seen in any of the wrestling books I have looked at.

My BJJ school likes to focus more on the double and single leg wrestling style takedowns at this point in time.

I hope that clears things up.

Cool, thanks MK13. It's great that some of your old tai chi books coupled with the p/h clips you saw have given you some inspirition. There is plenty of that kind of thing in tcc often with trips, and sweeps.

It can be similar to judo but without the gi. from the form the one place where you do see a step back is in repulse monkey.

I remember reading a description of an application for it from Sun style from Tim Cartmell which sounded a lot like what you pulled off.. Only no grab just one over and one underhook if I remember rightly. Sun style is derived from Yang. That movement has you stepping back and at the same time pulling with that same side and pushing forward with the other side. wu style does it the other way round and there is a different way of applying it (outer reap).

The great thing is that these movements are rather generic. You can adapt repulse monkey to use against a kick for instance.

"I am just picking up some basic clinch grappling footwork and unbalancing skills."

I've never gotten unbalancing skill from footwork or form ;) i think you are exploring that yourself in freeplay which is great. Shifting your weight is throughout tai chi, to effect unbalancing the easiest things you can work on is exploiting the dead angle and getting somone with their weight on one leg from there continue to take them to the outside where all they can do is fall (can't step), or trip / sweep standing leg.

The easiest way to move the supporting foot is to take it in the direction it is facing. or once you have there balance on one leg move them any direction as long as you can prevent the other free leg from finding footing (various ways) they can only fall down.

maybe you know all this but these basics coupled with the pushing, pulling, wrapping (hooks), turning of the torso/ waist, trips - will give a fair variety of usage.

Hope some of that helps and or inspires. :)

^^^There we go.