I think it's funny that these discussions always turn into whether or not the god of the bible/koran/torah exists/is the all powerful creator of the universe orrrrrrrrrr not.

As if the biblical god is any more reasonable and likely then all the other million bajillion gods that "people" have been coming up with and discarding since even before the evolution of homo sapiens sapiens.

Delusional nutjobs:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Wiccan_ritual.PNG/528px-Wiccan_ritual.PNG


A guy who knows what he's talking about:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Fred_Phelps_on_his_pulpit.jpg

Q-dot has the correct. The duality of logic/science vs. faith/religion is absurd, because they have nothing to do with each other. The things that happen around them (like correlation between atheism and science etc) just give a sense that such a polarization exists. That was kinda my point too with that 'slightly' rantish post earlier.

Buddha Dharma, which is calmly fulfilled and powerfully ominpotent, has never moved at all, yet it melts the iron wheel.

Now, as for logic: I'd say that it is possible, in a limited sense, to disprove the existence of God (or at least some aspects of that existence). Take the law of causality: everything has a cause. Therefore, even if some God figure created the universe, that God figure either had to be created by another God-like figure or by some other circumstances. The law of causality essentially states that the universe is eternal in that a never ending chain of events led to its creation. This essentially disproves the idea of God's omnipresence/eternal existence.

So what about the traditional view of omnipotence? Is omnipotence really possible? No, it is logically contradictory. Take for example the classic question "Can God create a rock so heavy He cannot lift it?" If He can create such a rock, He is not omnipotent because He cannot lift the rock. If He cannot create such a rock, He is not omnipotent because He cannot create the rock.

Lastly, I think we can deduce that God does not exist or, at the very least, that it is unlikely that He exists. Think about it: a being who created the entire universe would have to be infinitely complex. How could such an infinitely complex being just come into existence by chance? It is far more likely that the relatively simply building blocks of our existence (i.e. protons, neutrons, electrons) came into existence by chance. Thus, I think it would be more proper to accept something like the "bubble theory" which states that different universes are simply "bubbles" created from other universes, ad infinitum.


Two things: the law of non contradiction and Gödel's incompleteness theorem.

Wow its been a bit since we were n this topic, maybe Thatmidgetken will come and play in here.

Q-dot has the correct. The duality of logic/science vs. faith/religion is absurd, because they have nothing to do with each other. The things that happen around them (like correlation between atheism and science etc) just give a sense that such a polarization exists. That was kinda my point too with that 'slightly' rantish post earlier.

You're right, logic and science have nothing to do with faith and religion. On one hand you have reason, logic, and a geniune search for knowledge, on the other, all you have is blind faith and supression of knowledge.

For the sake of argument, making the assumption that there is a creator, it is still a big jump from saying there is a prime mover, to giving it the attributes ascribed to it in the Islamic, Judeo, Christian holy books. How does one make that jump from I believe in a creator because it seems to me that the universe is too complex to simply have appeared, to I have faith in a personal god and savior of my soul?

Couldn’t it be considered hubris to even attempt to define the nature of such a creator and think you know what it wants?

Science is a tool for looking the universe as it is, to the best of our ability. Faith is eating the magic mushroom and thinking that experience also defines reality.

What are you taking about? the flying spaghetti monster does exist.

but in all seriousness I'm an atheist and I think it's ignorant to simply say that the logical thing to do is assume that god doesn't exist. you don't get anywhere by assuming things.
You're twisting things around. People who believe in God are assuming he exists. The atheist simply accepts reason and empiricism.

Furthermore, by saying that, you are saying that you are willing to accept the existence of Thor, Athena, Jupiter, a few thousand Hindu deities, and the invisible hippo in my backyard.


I'm talking about something deeper here, something that you can't disprove with charts and graphs and proof and logic, like the question said: faith and proof do not go against one another, I have to have faith and trust in your proof.

this is coming from an atheist/catholic who forsakens god, I'm going to hell or dying a fool.

you're way far from enlightening me, for I do not believe blindy.

but guess what? I don't believe blindy in science either.
Nobody "believes" in science. There is no faith in accepting the scientific method. Saying that you put faith in science is like saying you put faith in your own existence. You already know you exist ("I think therefore I am"), it's not a matter of faith. We derive logic and empiricism from this first axiom of existence and we derive science from empiricism.


I just don't give a ****.
Q-fucktard was wrong.


God already exists

he exists as an idea, being us who created him.

in turn, he created us, and it goes in circles like that.

there are no infinite gods(there could be, since we cannot prove their existance. they might even be in tight with the flying spaghetti monster)

as for god creating a burrito so hot he himself cannot eat, he's god

he can avoid the question altogether, **** with the laws of logic so he can do both, or acomplish the feat of creating the hottest burrito possible and never lay hands on it.

for He is mighty.

Amen.
Do all ideas exist in reality? Because I can't wait till I find that Asian nymphomaniac island...

Why is god in this thread again?
I'm just saying what ever happens, besides the obvious (decomposing etc.) we don't know and maybe never will, so what is all the mess about?!:psyduck:

**** you, Kaju. Keep your racism to yourself.

I think it's funny that these discussions always turn into whether or not the god of the bible/koran/torah exists/is the all powerful creator of the universe orrrrrrrrrr not.



Ever heared of gnostic mysticism?
Some of em believe something like this (small variations on the story may occur)

The God of the torah bible and qoran is a false god, his ancient name was yeldebaoth, he was created or spwaned if you like from the true godcreator who itself has no conciense or personality.
At first unaware of this he mistakes himself to be the one that created all.
Slowly awareness poors through of the real god, the unseen and unspoken one, thus the false god is an angry wrathfull one, he demands blind obedience and threathens with hell and damnation.
Every now and then people come forth who are filled with the holy ghost (true god)some say budha was one, some say jesus, others say muhammed some say all of those.
In the bible for example jesus states: if you insult me it shall be forgiven, if you insult the Father (false god) it shall be forgive but if you insult the holy spirit (true nature of the devine, rejecting its truth) it will not be forgiven, nor on earth nor in heaven in all eternities.

so if you would have a christian background reread all those stories where jesus speaks with this new angle, should give you some altered insights.

**** you, Kaju. Keep your racism to yourself.

Look man, I know how you feel about the issue. But, like, I really, really, really, really, really like teh Asian beaver. Hating me for that is like hating 3moose1 for being homosexual. He was born that way!

all you have is blind faith and supression of knowledge.


Willful ignorance was Skydad's ultimate plan for us until that bitch Eve fucked it up.

Science is a tool for looking the universe as it is, to the best of our ability. Faith is eating the magic mushroom and thinking that experience also defines reality.

The **** you know about some science?

Willful ignorance was Skydad's ultimate plan for us until that bitch Eve fucked it up.
Why didn't "god" strike her dead and created a new version with a bug fix?

Why didn't "god" strike her dead and created a new version with a bug fix?
'cause he's not Bill Gates and God doesn't issue Servicepacks?

Why didn't "god" strike her dead and created a new version with a bug fix?

Or better yet since he's all knowing, just not create the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the first place.

It's obvious from reading the bible that Skydad created us so that we could **** up and he could kill and torment us for it.

He's a malevolent and petty child. Like the kid from the Twilight Zone movie.