I recently had an argument with a Judoka friend who insists BJJ is Judo. I know the whole Maeda story, so I know where he's coming from. But having trained in both and knowing (feeling) that they are different, the argument seems infantile ...

But his logic is as follows: "Point out a single BJJ ne waza technique that was not included in Kodokan Judo?" I brought up gogoplata thinking I could stump him. But he replied with kagato jime, aparently the same thing.

Since I'm only a white belt in BJJ and only Yonkyu in Judo, I couldn't answer him. And When I looked through my old Judo books and surfed a bit, all the BJJ techniques or some version of them are there in Judo.

bjj: basically just judo.

however, the focus of the two arts are completely different.

For example, the focus of b.j.j is groundwork. However, i learned ippon seonage, osoto gari and uchimata at my b.j.j school, however, we don't drill them as much, so a judoka will have better throws then a bjjer (generally)

Conversely, the focus of judo is throwing, and the groundwork has (sadly) more or less gone out the window. Alot of schools simply teach you to stall on the ground, rather then to actually be proficient on there. so a bjjer will have better ground skills then a judoka (generally).


However, if you bring Kosen judo into this...

I'd like to hear what the guy who makes the "judo for jackasses" videos thinks about this. Probably something about buttfloppers.

The techniques are the same. The ability to apply them is not.

It's like saying Badminton and tennis (hell, Squash too for that matter) are the same, since they both have a forehand, and both have a volley, and a lob, etc, and all basically use the same mechanics.

The emphasis and rules of competition are different.

Judo is primarily a standing art, the pinnacle of which is a perfect throw - in which the opponent is thrown decisively onto his/her back, whereas BJJ is a predominantly groundwork based system the pinnacle of which is to place an opponent into a choke, or limb lock/hold that forces them to submit.

Some people joke around and say the BJJ = Basically Just Judo, but the fact of the matter is that most BJJ guys have a lot of respect and admiration for the nagewaza of Judo, and almost all Judo players are very impressed by the finesse demonstrated by BJJ players.

One is not the other, but both could collectively be called grappling.

Edit: I wanted to add that in my judo class, People with outside grappling experience (such as myself), and the higher level Judokas (Blue and above) regularly stay back after class and roll, open mat with the complete curriculum of submissions allowed - i.e. leg locks, cranks, etc, and play judo with and without the gi as well. Some people have criticized us for this, as they feel it breeds bad habits for shiai (competition) - after all, they say, why bother working for a sub when a hold is enough to win a match?

1) Sharing techniques only does not make a martial art or Judo would just be Kito Ryu + Tenshin Shinyo Ryu. It's BJJ's strategy, especially the positional system on the ground, that makes it not Judo.

2) There *are* techniques with absolutely no Judo equivalent. The anaconda, brabo, twister, elbow separator with the leg as fulcrum, this: http://www.grapplearts.com/Shaolin-Choke.htm , any choke extensively using the gi like that one ("ninja" choke for instance), knee separators, heel hook using the arms (not ashi garami), hundreds of leglock setups, thousands of guard maneuvers and passes - remember, there are more techniques than osaekomiwaza, kansetsuwaza, and shimewaza. The finish isn't the only thing worth calling a technique.

Also, hedge's kosen scavenger hunt: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31374&highlight=kosen+scavenger+hunt though it's outdated.

1) Sharing techniques only does not make a martial art or Judo would just be Kito Ryu + Tenshin Shinyo Ryu. It's BJJ's strategy, especially the positional system on the ground, that makes it not Judo.

2) There *are* techniques with absolutely no Judo equivalent. The anaconda, brabo, twister, elbow separator with the leg as fulcrum, this: http://www.grapplearts.com/Shaolin-Choke.htm , any choke extensively using the gi like that one ("ninja" choke for instance), knee separators, heel hook using the arms (not ashi garami), hundreds of leglock setups, thousands of guard maneuvers and passes - remember, there are more techniques than osaekomiwaza, kansetsuwaza, and shimewaza. The finish isn't the only thing worth calling a technique.

Also, hedge's kosen scavenger hunt: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31374&highlight=kosen+scavenger+hunt though it's outdated.

Thanks Blue Negation, I will check out the scavenger hunt thread.

after reading that thread (about kosen judo)

I've grown sick of this debate. Seriously. If you want to train judo, train judo, if you want to train bjj train bjj. if you want to train both, then train both.

Honestly, both martial arts are bad ass.

(i sense a quick and decisive trip to gitmo is imminent)

Also, the minute differences are disappearing rapidly since so many Judoka are crosstraining in BJJ and so many BJJers are learning Judo.

You know, i had a revelation.

Both games have evolved greatly. Its basically like comparing baseball and t-ball now...

Does judo teach pulling guard? I'm actually serious :)

I've not done a lot of Judo but I'm fairly sure there are penalty points/warning for deliberately trying to drag the fight to the ground without an attempt to throw, ie guard pulling.

Does judo teach pulling guard? I'm actually serious :)

I tried that once and was told I just ippon'd myself

In a scramble after a failed throw, one of my coaches always lectures that it's better to be on your back with him in between your legs (he doesn't use the term guard), because if you turtle you can't see what the **** he's doing, and can't do much about it even if you could.

So, I guess yeah, sorta.
Sharing techniques only does not make a martial art or Judo would just be Kito Ryu + Tenshin Shinyo Ryu. It's BJJ's strategy, especially the positional system on the ground, that makes it not Judo.Because of the nature of competition, specific techniques and strategies will drift in and out of fashion, so you can't really compare those (barring different rulesets). The training methodology of BJJ and Judo is identical though, and that's how we know they're very closely related.

BJJ has a different emphasis, and slightly less retarded competition rules. It arguably isn't Judo now, but it's easy to see where its origins lay. They're much more similar to each other than Judo is to any number JJJ styles IMHO.

Does judo teach pulling guard? I'm actually serious :)

If you fall on your back while pulling guard then it will be an ippon for the other person, however if you both fall after a failed throw you can pull guard. The referees in judo will stand you up quickly, so if you pull guard you only have a couple of seconds to attack.

Remember that a lot of Judo's emphasis in competition is based off of old JJJ battlefield concepts. In older Jujutsu systems, the idea was that you'd lost your primary weapon in battle, so needed to throw your opponent down, pull your secondary weapon, and shank him. Hence the idea that if you threw a guy on his back (or head), you could ensure quick and decisive total victory.

In a modern non-battlefield competitive setting, does this make sense? Not completely. Yet ippon by throw is still seen as the preferred means for victory.

Without reading everybody's post here's your argument:

Jujitsu begot Judo begot Jujitsu (Jiu Jitsu). Judo is actually Jujitsu so he's fucked one way or the other.