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View Full Version : Why Catch Wrestling is the grappling future in mma




Victor Parlati
4/26/2008 8:44pm,
...The biggest reason being that the DYNAMIC aspect of the CATCH-ANY-HOLD-YOU-CAN philosophy utilized in catch wrestling is more compatible with the DYNAMIC turn that mma has taken in it's crosstraining emphasis in recent years.

But there are also other reasons, starting with the wrestling base itself.

To start, first consider carefully what the following wrestlers have achieved in mma: Kazushi Sakuraba, Randy Couture, Georges St. Pierre, Matt Hughes, Shawn Sherk, Josh Barnett, (Chuck Liddell's wrestling skills are what has enabled hin to stay on his feet and play the striking game that he prefers)...earlier on there was Frank and Ken Shamrock, Mark Kerr, Mark Coleman, Dan Severn, and so on.

Now consider that the wrestling base often follows a different set of principles (and of course there's some overlap) than with arts like BJJ and judo...and those differences make for a freer flow in several significant ways - starting with (but not limited to) the fact that wrestling per se does not follow a particular positional flow chart as it exists in BJJ - and especially the Gracie version).

Now what does this have to do with catch wrestling?

Keep in mind that one way to define catch as catch can wrestling is that it's free style wrestling with submissions added (and it also has an historical relationship with Greco Roman as well - but again with submissions being the name of the game).

Now take the shoulder pinfalls out of the equation and add punches, kicks, knee and elbow strikes and you get people like Sakuraba and Barnett (as opposed to the more traditional catch wrestlers from the past like Martin (Farmer) Burns, Joe Pesek, Frank Gotch, Tom Jenkins, Earl Caddock, Joe Stecher, Ed (Strangler) Lewis, Ad Santel, George Tragos, Lou Thesz, Karl Gotch, etc.

MMA has changed everything in the fight world. Now Greco-Roman wrestlers like Randy Couture learn some boxing, some kicking, and some submissions and they're in a whole new stratosphere - but still using wrestling as his grappling base when the fight goes to clinch or to the ground.

And the same with the new breed of BJJ fighters like BJ Penn, Nog, and Renzo Gracie, to name just a few. These fighters have successfully crosstrained with boxing, kickboxing, and Muay Thai - and of course Vanderlai Silva also comes to mind...again just to mention a few names.

But what does all this have to do with catch wrestling being the grappling future within mma? What's wrong with BJJ? Judo? Sambo? (Let's not forget about Fedor - probably the best all around mma fighter to come along to date). And don't people like Couture, St. Pierre, Hughes, Liddell, and so on use some BJJ as part of their grappling ground game?

There's nothing wrong with BJJ, sambo, judo, etc. In fact, the entire martial arts world owes a great debt to the Gracie's and thier Brazilian style of jiu jitsu.

So why say that catch wrestling is the grappling future within mma?

Let's take a careful look within catch and the answers will appear. It's a grappling style that does several things from a whole different perspective than BJJ.

Sush as: It rides heavy and prefers to pin the man down by making him carry your weight more so than BJJ - which prefers the mobility that a lighter ride provides in order to transition from one position to the other as it follows the BJJ flowchart.

Not that riding with the hips lower and therefore spending less time with your weight on your knees will make a catch wrestler slow - but it is easier and faster, for example, to go from side control to full mount as it is done in BJJ by first being on your knees.

But in catch a whole different game is being played as regards positional fighting. In catch it's not POSITION-and then-SUBMISSION.

In catch it's CONTROL-and then-SUBMISSION.

While catch prefers to have top dominant positions in order to make the man carry your weight and tire him out (and therefore catch looks upon the man "caught" in guard as being in the dominant position)...while it has certain positional preferences...

there are no golden positional rules to follow before going for a submission.

Catch will go for a submission from basically any "position" - because the golden rule is CONTROL over the opponent's body - from anywhere.

One can say that BJJ will do very similar things - but with one very big philosophical difference: CATCH ANY HOLD YOU CAN means that not only does the catch wrestler look upon his opponent's whole body as a target and views his own entire body as a weapon - BUT THEREFORE THE EMPHASIS IN CATCH is quite, quite often to go for a hold (or a submission) as a MEANS OF GAINING CONTROL...

which means that no top position has been established and no control has been established FIRST - but the hold is gone after and applied anyway. This is a major departure form the BJJ way - and is THE MOST DISTINGUSHING FEATURE of catch wrestling...

but require a very strong wrestling base in order to make this free-wheeling style of grappling with submissions work.

All this said, now go back and watch Sakuraba's fights (and Barnett's fights in recent years) and you will see the difference in their grappling compared to BJJ. They will go for holds (and often "catch" them) seemingly out of nowhere.

Quite often doing it by breaking another major cardinal rule within BJJ: turning their backs to their opponents. (But have either one ever been submitted for doing so?)

And then there's the whole issue of the guard position. Catch will use the bottom scissors (guard) but the preference is not to stay down on one's back any longer than you have to - meaning the strategy is to work escape routes first and foremost (and if a submission is possible WHILE working to escape back to one's feet or to a reversal - fine)...

but the idea is not to "work" the bottton scissors (guard) for a sub or a sweep as the main goal. And never "pull" guard (bottom scissors).

If you're taken down - get up and out as fast as you can.

The whole picture makes for a more dynamic grappling style that has many more submissions within it's arsenal - and is more conducive (since it follows no strict positional flowchart) to transitions to striking...a key element within today's mma.

Kentucky Fried Chokin
4/26/2008 8:50pm,
I only read the beginning of this long rant, but it leads me to belive that you are a pretty clever troll. I use the same 'catch can b34t stoopid BBJ' theme when I troll.

Teh El Macho
4/26/2008 8:56pm,
From http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1789047&postcount=626



This will be my final post on this thread...

Too bad it wasn't your final post on the interweebz



This will be my final post on this thread, since I've come to the conclusion that I'm dealing with a bunch of morons who have Gracie semen running down their faces at every opportunity possible


Instead of fantasizing about us with Gracie's semen all over us (man, you like to project, don't you?), why don't you pick an anatomy book and answer the following:

1. Since you claimed hitting the femoral artery do open guards (your own words here (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1781114&highlight=femeral#post1781114)), how do you hit the femoral artery?

2. If you were not referring to the femoral artery (as you later suggested here (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1781870&postcount=519), then why did you call it as such, and what is the artery you were referring to, then? Use a medical book or diagram if you have to to identify it.

3. If you were not referring to a single artery, then what cluster of nerves and arteries that upon being hit makes a person automatically open his legs were you VAGELY referring to here (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1783580&postcount=545)? Use any anatomical/medical diagram you see fit (which are many available online).

Or what, are anatomy books also covered in Gracie's semen?

The Question
4/26/2008 9:05pm,
I only read the beginning of this long rant, but it leads me to belive that you are a pretty clever troll. I use the same 'catch can b34t stoopid BBJ' theme when I troll.

Dude, are you fucking kidding? I thought that was a pretty well thought out post with useful information and a great launching point for good discussion.

jnp
4/26/2008 9:10pm,
I'm not going to bother arguing with your overall premise. I disagree with it, mind you, but not because I think BJJ is superior. I'm simply going to correct a few of your erroneous assumptions about BJJ.


Sush as: It rides heavy and prefers to pin the man down by making him carry your weight more so than BJJ - which prefers the mobility that a lighter ride provides in order to transition from one position to the other as it follows the BJJ flowchart.
This is wholly incorrect regarding BJJ. There is no "lighter ride" in BJJ. You are taught to focus all the weight that's possible from top position to make it harder for the bottom man to escape.



Anthen there's the whole issre of the guard position. Catch eill use the bottom scissors (guard) but the preference is not to stay down on one's back any longer than you have to...meaning the strategy is to work escpae routes first and foremost (and if a submission is possible WHILE wroking and escape back to one's feet or to a reversal - fine)...
The guard in BJJ is first and foremost about getting out of the bottom position via sweep, if you can catch a submission during this process then good on you. That is why the guard is ranked lower than ALL the top positions in BJJ's hierarchy.

Also, I was unaware that Randy Couture, Georges St. Pierre, Matt Hughes and Shawn Sherk were catch wrestlers. I must have missed the memo.

Goju - Joe
4/26/2008 9:11pm,
I got taped out to a nose crank by a catch wrestler.

I am looking at you Shovel (does the points to eyes - I see you thingy)

whybother
4/26/2008 9:16pm,
Dude, are you fucking kidding? I thought that was a pretty well thought out post with useful information and a great launching point for good discussion.

Then go over to http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21669&page=64 and just work your way back and you'll see how Parlati is a newbie white belt to sub grappling who studies "catch" from Tony Checcine via DVD (and how Checcine has suspect skills), how Parlati has never spent any time rolling with good grapplers, thinks he knows better than the world's most elite grapplers, thinks he can open the guard with elbow strikes to some mysterious points (which he believes is, in his own words, the "femeral arterie"), refuses to believe that most of his cherished "catch" strategies are already a part of BJJ and other grappling arts, and so on.

Catch isn't "the future" of MMA. Catch is the past.

krazy kaju
4/26/2008 9:22pm,
Victor Parlati has a hardon for catch wrestling.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/3/funnykid.jpg

bopinator
4/26/2008 9:26pm,
Has anyone pointed out that position gives you control. HArd to control a guy if he in side control on top of you. Easier to control an opponent if you'r eon top of him in side control.

bopinator
4/26/2008 9:28pm,
Also anyone wanna list succesful BJJ/Sambo/judo practitioners in MMA I really CBF as the list is too long.

krazy kaju
4/26/2008 9:30pm,
Has anyone pointed out that position gives you control. HArd to control a guy if he in side control on top of you. Easier to control an opponent if you'r eon top of him in side control.
http://www.azillionthings.com/lookytouchy/orly_owl.jpg

I think I'm on a role with these pics.

In any case, from what I've read on these forums, catch guys usually practice for the pin and whatnot and don't know their guard from mount, etc. Like, they'll try to kimura you in your guard. LOL.

JohnnyCache
4/26/2008 9:49pm,
I don't think that catch wrestling is the future of MMA. There aren't any catch wrestlers, anywhere. They're like unicorns.

krazy kaju
4/26/2008 9:56pm,
This thread is teh fail:
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/asplode_Fail.gif

Teh El Macho
4/26/2008 11:50pm,
Anyone wanna bet Parlati comes back posting will all guns blazing throwing insults that involve Gracie's semen? That seems to be his favorite modus operandi whenever **** doesn't turn the way he wanted.

Victor Parlati
4/27/2008 1:24am,
"Not that riding with the hips lower and therefore spending less time with your weight on your knees will make a catch wrestler slow - but it is easier and faster, for example, to go from side control to full mount as it is done in BJJ by first being on your knees." (VP)

Followed by this response:

"Who told you this? The entire reason for being on a knee or two is to block the repositioning into side control, NOT to provide a lighter ride. Wrestling style with both legs out is a slightly heavier ride, but you'll be back in guard in about two seconds."


***IS TO BLOCK THE repositioning into side control?! Would you like to reconsider that statement? You already have side control - and one of the main reasons why you are on your knees is in order to attempt to transition into mount. What are you talking about?

.......................................



(Originally Posted by Victor Parlati) "Such as: It rides heavy and prefers to pin the man down by making him carry your weight more so than BJJ - which prefers the mobility that a lighter ride provides in order to transition from one position to the other as it follows the BJJ flowchart."

Followed by this response:

"This is wholly incorrect regarding BJJ. There is no 'lighter ride' in BJJ. You are taught to focus all the weight that's possible from top position to make it harder for the bottom man to escape."


***Two questions here: First, Are you saying that one of the biggest reasons why you're on your knees is NOT because it helps to make a quicker and easier transition into mount position? And secondly, being on your knees gives him more space to manuever than not being on your kness, does it not?

.............................................


(Originally Posted by Victor Parlati) "And then there's the whole issue of the guard position. Catch will use the bottom scissors (guard) but the preference is not to stay down on one's back any longer than you have to...meaning the strategy is to work escape routes first and foremost (and if a submission is possible WHILE working to escape back to one's feet or to a reversal - fine)..."

Followed by this response:


"The guard in BJJ is first and foremost about getting out of the bottom position via sweep, if you can catch a submission during this process then good on you. That is why the guard is ranked lower than ALL the top positions in BJJ's hierarchy."

***Of course it's ranked lower, which is why in catch the first priority is to work an escape route - for which a sweep is just one way.

........................................


"Also, I was unaware that Randy Couture, Georges St. Pierre, Matt Hughes and Shawn Sherk were catch wrestlers. I must have missed the memo."


***YEAH, I missed it too. Since no one ever said that about any of these guys. Read that part of my first post on this thread again.

......................................


"Has anyone pointed out that position gives you control. Hard to control a guy if he in side control on top of you. Easier to control an opponent if you're on top of him in side control."


***OF COURSE it's usually easier to control him if you have a top "position" - and no one is saying that better position doesn't usually give you a chance to have better control.

But what I am saying is that in catch you don't work under the impression that you must - FIRST AND FOREMOST - attain a superior position in order to have control and go after a submission safely. Attaining a "top dominant" position is not a prerequisite for attempting a submission hold. Very, very often holds are put on during a scramble - as a means of attaining control (or securing a better position - or both, perhaps).

Not saying that this doesn't ever happen in BJJ. Am saying that is happens MUCH MORE FREQUENTLY in catch wrestling - due to the catch-any-hold-you-can philosophy and the numerous amounts of submissions that exist in catch.

And btw...sambo is a real hybrid that hass always traditionally borrowed from catch - and not just from judo. Especially the case with leglocks.

Kintanon
4/27/2008 1:41am,
That was a typo from him.
The purpose of that knee is to block your opponent from REGAINING GUARD. But that in itself is a red herring as once you are good at it you can block the hips using your own hip without having your knee up. I prefer to block the hip with my arm for easy transitions to north south.

Many aspects of BJJ and Catch are complimentary.