Thank you I will look into it.

Originally posted by Teryan
Thank you I will look into it.

Here is a link to a very good write up about the different kwans.

http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html

Please understand that I am not trying to be an ass to you. I once thought the same way you did. I ate the spoon fed history that was given to me. I just happen to get curious about the kwans one day and started looking into it deeper than most. Then I started to research a bit of Korean history to try and sync up the two.

As far as sources go, also look at the history of the development of the forms/patterns in TKD. Early tkd forms were almost verbatim from Shotokan. And a lot of ITF patterns still have a strong resemblance to Shotokan. The names are another good place to start. Some of the names for Korean MA (before they came up with Tae Kwon Do) were simply Korean pronounciations of the Japanese style name. And finally, read old stuff on TKD and you'll find it referred to as "Korean Karate" quite a lot.

Regards,
Matt

Please understand that I am not trying to be an ass to you.

I understand, it's just a little different than what I expected to find.

Korea did have it's own system of a martial Art way back when, not shure how mutch of that is still Korean and how mutch is Japineese Karate.


In 1957 he discovered a book call the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji. This was to be a great discovery for him. This book was a historical document of Korean's martial arts. It was published 300 years ago and is the only known Korean martial art book from that era. Within that book he discovered the traditional Soo Bahk Ki (Hand Striking Technique) and Soo Bahk Hee (Hand Striking Dance). Hwang, Kee created the name Soo Bahk Do from both Soo Bahk Ki and Soo Bahk Hee. He combined both names through his belief that Soo Bahk should teach Moo Do (Martial Way) Philosophy of stopping inner and outer conflict.

Source (http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/MooDukKwan.html)


TKD is NOT thousands of years old. it is at most 60.

The name is 60 years old. They found a panting of guy in a temple thousands of years old, who was doing a back stanch witha double guarding high block.
Here check this out, this link has some picks of two people sparring and hunting. It also describes some of the MA of the time:
Link (http://www.sundo.co.nz/history.html)

Korea was a passage way to Japan, China and Mongolia (they also got invated alot by those guys), so it would make sence that alot of MA's would pass thru there. A "melting pot of MA's". We practice traditional TKD and we do see alot of things from other MA's like: Karate (the hands and alot of forms), Judo the grabs and throws (mostly Hapkido does that), etc. But the sport side of TKD has destroyed many of those thigns (WTF sparring - No hands) thus giving TKD a bad name self defence name today.

This link has some mroe stuff about the history of TKD and Tang Soo Do and Tae Kon DoSource for the Melting pot thing and everything below here (http://www.erc.msstate.edu/~jmb/USMSK_History.html)


It is interesting to note at this point that there is a distinct difference between Moo Sul Kwan training and the training received at the majority of Tae kwon do or Hapkido schools that are in existence today. It can be summed up as martial art vs. martial sport.

So true.


Great Grand Master Kang's emphasis was on the combat survival of his agents and he himself was considered a hero for having been caught twice, tortured, and then escaped; once by using his extremely powerful kicks to kill two of his communist captors and another time by jumping off a cliff and swimming to freedom. Great Grand Master Kang was reputed as having the most powerful techniques in Korea.

Interstering...


We are not interested in flashy, ineffective techniques. We do our best to uphold the tradition that was embraced by Grand Master Lee H. Park.

God, I love my school.

The name is 60 years old. They found a panting of guy in a temple thousands of years old, who was doing a back stanch witha double guarding high block. LINK

This is just dumb. By the same reasoning look what I can prove:

Egyptians invented Thai boxing, it was often demonstrated in front of the Pharoah.
http://www.visual-echo.com/egypt/products/48.jpg

"The name is 60 years old. They found a panting of guy in a temple thousands of years old, who was doing a back stanch witha double guarding high block."

it has also bee shown that those paintings very closely resemble japanese religious statues that were placed in temples.

source: http://www.powerkixusa.com/history/history.htm
(scroll down to ancient korean martial arts)

btw, here's a good history too
http://www.sos.mtu.edu/husky/tkdhist.htm

It can be summed up as martial art vs. martial sport.

Hmmm. Sounds good on the surface, but it is relatively meaningless unless the terms are defined. When many people refer to "martial art" they mean that it is an overall art, that does not focus on fighting, but is a "way of life". An example would be someone who believes things like, "boxing is just fighting, but my style is a martial art!"

On the other hand, when referring to so-called martial sport, there's sport and then there's sport. I mean some "martial sports" are not really very martial at all. Like point karate, where the participants aren;t even really fighting (that's not "martial"). But then there are hard core kickboxing sports like K1 and hardcore NHB/MMA sports like Pride that involve real fighting with minimal rules and restrictions. Those types of "martial sports" are many times more real martial arts than the so-called martial arts that disdain sport fighting.

It's an unfortunate fact that many people who say they practice "martial art" versus "martial sport" really mean that they don't and won't fight. And I'm afraid that is what appears to be the case with your school.

Regards,
Matt

PS. This probably should have gone under the :rate my school" thread, but since it was based off a quote here, this is where I put it.

Korea did have it's own system of a martial Art way back when, not shure how mutch of that is still Korean and how mutch is Japineese Karate.

They had a military which practiced forms of armed combat. Though things were done in drills, there was not a well formed system put together. The book Moo Ye Dobo Tongji was derived from 2 different manuals and was supposed to be an overview of the different type of military combat techniques that Korea performed.

Korea's culture was heavily influenced by the Chinese and if they did have a martial art, it would most likely be in Chuan'fa or as they call it Kwon bup.


The name is 60 years old. They found a panting of guy in a temple thousands of years old, who was doing a back stanch witha double guarding high block.
Here check this out, this link has some picks of two people sparring and hunting.

Yes I am sure there was a form of combat, but TKD does not stem from that combat. The people who put TKD together all came from Japanese Karate schools and Yudo schools. There were not underground masters that emerged after the Japan left Korea.

If we go with the logic that cave drawings are a proof that TKD is 2000 years old, we can say that the cave drawings that prehistoric man drew are reminance of the fact that boxing is 2000 years old.

Check out this link:
http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/korea/history/early_choson_period.htm

This will go in to detail about the impact of religion on the times and how it was more profitable to pursue scholarly ways than it was to be a soldier. Though they were treated well they really didn't have a lot of power. Also here is another possiblility that any written documentation of Korean arts would have been lost way before the last occupation of Japan:


The results of the Hideyoshi invasion brought about the destruction of government records, cultural objects, archives, historical documents and many works of art, the devastation of land, decrease in population, and the loss of artisans and technicians. Arable land amounted to only one-third of the prewar acreage, and the resulting decrease of revenue necessitated additional taxation of less devastated provinces such as Kyonggi-do or Ch'oungch'dong-do. The government resorted to selling official titles and yangban status, and on occasion, held an examination for government service open to the bondsmen class. The loss of artisans brought a decline in handiwork quality, as well as in manufactured goods such as pottery and book printing. The Neo-Confucian norms and values were shaken, and the class distinctions which the yangban tried to uphold began to slowly crumble.

Also keep in mind that any documents written prior to the the formation of hangul would have been in Chinese and would only be readable to the highly educated. Common man was not able to read such documents. This could lead to the belief that if there was an "underground" art then it would have been family oriented and handed down. Not one of the founders of TKD claim to be taught by their parents. Draw your conclusions.




Korea was a passage way to Japan, China and Mongolia (they also got invated alot by those guys), so it would make sence that alot of MA's would pass thru there. A "melting pot of MA's".

Wrong. China established trade with Japan directly. Japan wanted to use Korea as a way to invade China, this prompted the first invasion of Korea by Japan. Korea had many on again off again relationships with China especially during the 3 kingdom period. Shilla was able to unify (ie conquer) the Paekche and Koguryo with the help of the T'ang dynasty soldiers of China with the promise of "sharing" Korea. Once all was said and done Korean forced all of China out of Korea. Also, to show that China had direct connection to Japan, take a look at the root of Karate. :)



Great Grand Master Kang's emphasis was on the combat survival of his agents and he himself was considered a hero for having been caught twice, tortured, and then escaped; once by using his extremely powerful kicks to kill two of his communist captors and another time by jumping off a cliff and swimming to freedom. Great Grand Master Kang was reputed as having the most powerful techniques in Korea.

Outside the source of your school's history, what proof do you have confirming these claims?

More food for thought:


Grand Master Kang, Suh Chong was also a member of that original small group of students that practiced in secret under Great Grand Master Lee and he founded the Kuk Mu Kwan in 1953 at Inchon Korea three months after the Korean War was over.

GM Lee, Won-kuk spent his time during the Korean war over in Japan. Did GM Kang study under GM Lee there?


Master Park, Lee Hyun (Lee H. Park) was Grand Master Kang, Suh Chong's student, and Master Jeff Forby was Master Lee H. Park's Tang soo do / Tae kwon do student. Great Grand Master Kang then became the first president of the American Tae Kwon Do Association (ATA) and Grand Master Lee H. Park and his Moo Sul Kwan Self Defense Institutes became ATA members. Around 1981, Great Grand Master Kang retired. Grand Master Lee H. Park then left the ATA and founded and served as president of the American Martial Art, Sports and Education Association (AMASEA) until his untimely death in 1988 at the age of 49.

The founder of Moo Sul Kwan, was 11 years old at the time of the Korean war. So again, this is highly suspect with dates and claims. I would start investigating more into the history and find some other information to confirm this.

This is just dumb. By the same reasoning look what I can prove:

I wasn't proving TKD was around back then, I was saying something was. It could very well be some Japineese religious figures.

@ Matt W.: Let's save it for the rate my school thread.


The founder of Moo Sul Kwan, was 11 years old at the time of the Korean war. So again, this is highly suspect with dates and claims. I would start investigating more into the history and find some other information to confirm this.

Why is that so hard to believe? Chang Moo Kwan taught him, he splinted off and started Moo Sul Kwan. Yes he was 11 during the Korean War, so? I know his teacher (not shure who it was, I need to do a little more research) died during the Korean war (I'm guessing towards the end of it).
Here is the World Chang Moo Kwan web site:
http://www.worldchangmookwan.com/


Outside the source of your school's history, what proof do you have confirming these claims?

No, But i willl look (your going to keep me up late at night).


Not one of the founders of TKD claim to be taught by their parents. Draw your conclusions.

Who exacily are the founders of TKD? I've only seen the 'original' masters dates are around the begining of the 1900's. There must have been some kind of Martial Art in Korea (besides Karate) before the 'original' masters.


China established trade with Japan directly. Japan wanted to use Korea as a way to invade China,

So they have a trade aggreement, but Japan invades Korea to get to China (would't they half to go thru Russia to get to China?)? Why?


If we go with the logic that cave drawings are a proof that TKD is 2000 years old, we can say that the cave drawings that prehistoric man drew are reminance of the fact that boxing is 2000 years old.

I dont understand this, If a guy draws a pic of someoen hunting, then there are probly hunters. So if some one draws a pick of a block, then there were probly someone some where blocking. Right?

So they have a trade aggreement, but Japan invades Korea to get to China (would't they half to go thru Russia to get to China?)? Why?

No, they would not have to go through Russia. China is the entire land border of present day North Korea.

As for those cave paintings, the foot placement is not really that of a TKD back stance. Nor is the depiction of weight distribution anywhere near enough to be scientifically tied. If it is argued that it is merely an artists rendering, then the same argument that defends it can be used to refute it with equal gravity. It looks like someone leaning to get out of range of an attack and with raised arms to ward off a blow. Both are the natural reaction of a completely non-tranined individual who sees a bat being swung at them. I do not disagree with you that there could have been some sort of fighting art or method that Koreans back then practiced. However, to tie some one crouched in a wide based with their hands up to TKD is a huge leap of faith - hardly even more than circumstancial evidence let alone a solid piece of proof.

Sorry, I fogot to finish my first point.

The Korean peninsula is the nearest continental land to the Isles of Japan by many miles. So the fastest most efficient route to China for Japanese merchants was through Korea which stands directly between Japan and China. That is one of the reasons why Japan invaded Korea. Control of the peninsula was control of trade routes. Japan also wanted to eventually invade China without the delay and weakness of stretching supply lines over the sea. Occupation of Korea would provide Japan with a base on the mainland.

Originally posted by Teryan
Why is that so hard to believe? Chang Moo Kwan taught him, he splinted off and started Moo Sul Kwan. Yes he was 11 during the Korean War, so? I know his teacher (not shure who it was, I need to do a little more research) died during the Korean war (I'm guessing towards the end of it).
Here is the World Chang Moo Kwan web site:
http://www.worldchangmookwan.com/

Ok, first of all who are you claiming to be your Grandmaster? You mention both Grandmaster Kang, who was part of the Chungdokwan, but in the same breath you mention that you were under Mu Sul Kwan which is Grandmaster Park who was a splinter group of Changmookwan. Yet it says in the pages that GM Park was GM Kang's student, which means he would have been Chungdokwan not Changmookwan. Did he break away from GM Kang and the Chungdokwan and join GM Yoon of the Changmookwan?


No, But i willl look (your going to keep me up late at night).

That is how you learn all these crazy things we call facts. :) It is great reading. When you come across things that are dated, start looking into the Korean history and try to synch it up an see if it makes sense.



Who exacily are the founders of TKD? I've only seen the 'original' masters dates are around the begining of the 1900's. There must have been some kind of Martial Art in Korea (besides Karate) before the 'original' masters.

What masters are these that you are talking about? The masters who helped developed TKD can be found in the link that I sent to you earlier: http://www.martialartsresource.com/...ts/history.html
They will give you the dates and the kwans and their backgrounds.




So they have a trade aggreement, but Japan invades Korea to get to China (would't they half to go thru Russia to get to China?)? Why?

Korea is directly connected to China in the NE area of the penninsula. If you read the history page link that I sent you it will tell you that Japan tried to get Korea to back them in the invasion of China, but Korea did not. This prompted Japan to invade Korea.




I dont understand this, If a guy draws a pic of someoen hunting, then there are probly hunters. So if some one draws a pick of a block, then there were probly someone some where blocking. Right?

Like any piece of art it is interpretive to the viewer looking at it. We could also say that the picture is possibly a type of folk dance. We really don't know. It is just a large jump, like Haksaeng mentioned, to say that the painting was that of a warrior of martial arts. The trouble with TKD's history is that they are trying to tie that painting into their little myth that TKD is 2000 years old. Again, no one is saying that Korea never had its own indengineous martial arts. We are saying that traces to such things have pretty much abolished due to several invasions and war. TKD, HKD, Daehan Kumdo, and HRD, are pretty much Japanese rooted with Korean flavor...

Ok, first of all who are you claiming to be your Grandmaster? You mention both Grandmaster Kang, who was part of the Chungdokwan, but in the same breath you mention that you were under Mu Sul Kwan which is Grandmaster Park who was a splinter group of Changmookwan. Yet it says in the pages that GM Park was GM Kang's student, which means he would have been Chungdokwan not Changmookwan. Did he break away from GM Kang and the Chungdokwan and join GM Yoon of the Changmookwan?

You lost me. Neather GM Park or GM Kang are my teachers. My tacher was taught by GM Park.


What masters are these that you are talking about? The masters who helped developed TKD can be found in the link that I sent to you earlier: http://www.martialartsresource.com/...ts/history.html

The very first guy (the link is down right now, other wise i would quote it) saw the one guy take on the other eight and win. He followed the guy home, and saw him practice what ever it was (no one was shure, but they called it Taekwon or some thign else). So there had to be some kind of martial art in Korea that had some kind of impact on the Kwans. Do you know of any infomration of Martial Arts in Korea before the Kwans (most of those guys are from around the begining of the 1900's).


If you read the history page link that I sent you it will tell you that Japan tried to get Korea to back them in the invasion of China, but Korea did not. This prompted Japan to invade Korea.

I dont have enought time to read all of your links (theres alot of stuff in there), but i am trying.

"The very first guy (the link is down right now, other wise i would quote it) saw the one guy take on the other eight and win. He followed the guy home, and saw him practice what ever it was (no one was shure, but they called it Taekwon or some thign else)."

that sounds like the story about how Hwang Kee got started (he's the dude who founded Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do)

Originally posted by Teryan
You lost me. Neather GM Park or GM Kang are my teachers. My tacher was taught by GM Park.

Ok..well are you part of the ATA?




The very first guy (the link is down right now, other wise i would quote it) saw the one guy take on the other eight and win. He followed the guy home, and saw him practice what ever it was (no one was shure, but they called it Taekwon or some thign else). So there had to be some kind of martial art in Korea that had some kind of impact on the Kwans. Do you know of any infomration of Martial Arts in Korea before the Kwans (most of those guys are from around the begining of the 1900's).

You are referring to Hwang Kee and his knowledge in Taekkyon (the art that he watched) is questionable. Not only that Taekkyon is a Korean folk game not a martial art that some people claim it to be. Again, there are no documentation of any fighting systems prior to the formation fo the kwans after the Japanese invasion. There are people now saying that Sun Mu Do, which is a temple art is a traditional Korean art. This does have merit as it is similar to the Shaolin Kung Fu system. Many people will also claim Haidong Kumdo as a traditional sword art, but there is very little backing on the documentaion on this as well. Unfortuanetly Korea lost a lot of its historical documenation not only martial but general history as well. So much of its martial history is speculative at best.



I dont have enought time to read all of your links (theres alot of stuff in there), but i am trying.

Well at least now you have some sources to start looking into once you decide to study more of the history. I hope they will help.

"Not only that Taekkyon is a Korean folk game not a martial art that some people claim it to be."

you may want to talk to Wastrel about his experience in Taekkyon, he has studied it.