It seems the internal styles of Kung Fu (manly Tai Chi) have been marketed for their health benefits to the elderly only, stripping the art of its first use: fighting. At least that is the reality here where I live.
I've only been practicing Tai Chi Chuan because the friend that teaches me is one of the few that actually cultivates the Chuan (fist) side as well. But most of the people practicing seem to be drawn only to the health issues - wich is fine, of course, but I miss the practical side. This friend has tossed and twisted me in many different ways, and really cares for explaining why exactly the forms use the stances this way or that way.
But everytime we see Tai Chi, even in public demonstrations, it's all slow forms, fan katis and all that - but never a 'look people, the reason why your hand is held to this side is to grab the person, now he can be thrown this way, and this way and BUM, he is in the ground, you can twist the neck and he is dead'.

Why do you think the internal stykes have become little more than health therapy, even for the eyes of the Martial Art community? Is it, like I said, due to marketing and finding a good public for slow motion forms? Maybe due to the Chinese way of hiding the secrets of the art until the person is skilled enough?

I'm sorry if the subject is old.

The vast majority of people interested in doing a "traditional style" are not really interested in fighting.

Most people interested in fighting are not overly interested in some traditional means of fighting. They only want results.

Learning to fight is hard and painful, no matter what style you learn. It takes a different kind of person to show up to class every day only to exercise to exhaustion, and be beaten by students better then them.

Explaining black eyes gets old after awhile, the chance of serious injury is always present, and your ego quickly gets tired of finding your limitations.

While most people who are interested in traditional forms, (like the internal ones) like the idea of learning practical skill. They often get tired of being beaten up by the second week. Getting punched in the head isn't fun, and doing calisthenics till you puke doesn't seem so glorious.

Learning practical theory and to fight are two different animals.

-Christopher Hein
www.centralvalleyaikido.com

The vast majority of people interested in doing a "traditional style" are not really interested in fighting.

Most people interested in fighting are not overly interested in some traditional means of fighting. They only want results.

Learning to fight is hard and painful, no matter what style you learn. It takes a different kind of person to show up to class every day only to exercise to exhaustion, and be beaten by students better then them.

Explaining black eyes gets old after awhile, the chance of serious injury is always present, and your ego quickly gets tired of finding your limitations.

While most people who are interested in traditional forms, (like the internal ones) like the idea of learning practical skill. They often get tired of being beaten up by the second week. Getting punched in the head isn't fun, and doing calisthenics till you puke doesn't seem so glorious.

Learning practical theory and to fight are two different animals.

-Christopher Hein
www.centralvalleyaikido.com

I don't have tons to add here. I agree with most of what you're saying. But just wanted to point out a couple of things.

There's no such thing as "Traditional fighting" there's just fighting. And there's not fighting. The way its done at that point is cosmetic. Either you can fight, or you can't fight.

Other than that everything you said is spot on.

The thing I respect about the "teaching for health reasons" arts is that at least they're up front about what they're showing. Its an excercise for health. Where as a vast majority of martial arts instructors are only teaching a fancy, tradition ridden aerobic work-out. And then calling it fighting.

I agree; maybe I should have said cultral fighting ideals, or a traditional fighting systems.

Fighting is fighting. Everything else is just an interpitation and a therory.

Nice.

I agree; maybe I should have said cultral fighting ideals, or a traditional fighting systems.

Fighting is fighting. Everything else is just an interpitation and a therory.

Nice.


I see what you're saying. Christ knows I spent years chasing after something like that. The entire time convinced that somehow aesthetics had any effect in reality beyond "Oooh, its pretty."

A punch thats uglier than hell can still put you on your back.

The Yangs rushed out into the world while the Chens stayed in the village. It happens.

The vast majority of people interested in doing a "traditional style" are not really interested in fighting.

Most people interested in fighting are not overly interested in some traditional means of fighting. They only want results.

Learning to fight is hard and painful, no matter what style you learn. It takes a different kind of person to show up to class every day only to exercise to exhaustion, and be beaten by students better then them.

Explaining black eyes gets old after awhile, the chance of serious injury is always present, and your ego quickly gets tired of finding your limitations.

While most people who are interested in traditional forms, (like the internal ones) like the idea of learning practical skill. They often get tired of being beaten up by the second week. Getting punched in the head isn't fun, and doing calisthenics till you puke doesn't seem so glorious.

Learning practical theory and to fight are two different animals.

-Christopher Hein
www.centralvalleyaikido.com (http://www.centralvalleyaikido.com)

I understand what you mean. But, for example, I train also in North Shaolin Kung Fu. And, besides the guy with down sydrome, everybody there is interested in fighting. Well, even if they aren't they sure know I am interested, since from the first day I've been asking questions about sparring, Anyway, at least the most graduated in the style get to fight in tournaments. What about the Tai Chi or Xinyi people?
I know there are lots of people joining traditional styles that aren't much into getting punched out constantly, in other words, aren't there for fighting. No problem with that. The problem is, if we are all joining a fighting system, shouldn't at least he majority of us be interested in fighting?! Isn't it like we are all going to the gym to work out, but nobody is trying to get fit? Shouldn't it be the main focus?

Isn't it like we are all going to the gym to work out, but nobody is trying to get fit?

Crazier things, man. Crazier things have happened.

Some people go to the gym and do just that.

I understand what you mean. But, for example, I train also in North Shaolin Kung Fu. And, besides the guy with down sydrome, everybody there is interested in fighting. Well, even if they aren't they sure know I am interested, since from the first day I've been asking questions about sparring, Anyway, at least the most graduated in the style get to fight in tournaments. What about the Tai Chi or Xinyi people?

Xingyi used to be one of the main styles used to the Kushou matches in Taiwan. The Xingyi camp, usually connected with the Tang Shou Tao, was also the largest and used to train specifically for full contact matches. So yes there were a lot of Xingyi fighters. I don't know about now. I'm sure most of the full contact fighters in Taiwan train is some form of Sanda nowadays since it would be a more direct method.

I understand what you mean. But, for example, I train also in North Shaolin Kung Fu. And, besides the guy with down sydrome, everybody there is interested in fighting. Well, even if they aren't they sure know I am interested, since from the first day I've been asking questions about sparring, Anyway, at least the most graduated in the style get to fight in tournaments. What about the Tai Chi or Xinyi people?
I know there are lots of people joining traditional styles that aren't much into getting punched out constantly, in other words, aren't there for fighting. No problem with that. The problem is, if we are all joining a fighting system, shouldn't at least he majority of us be interested in fighting?! Isn't it like we are all going to the gym to work out, but nobody is trying to get fit? Shouldn't it be the main focus?

Training to fight, and thinking that you'd like to learn to fight are two very differnt things.

Most people after they get a taste of what training to fight is like, they then understand that they don't like it. Then they either own up to that, or the pretend.

I understand what you mean. But, for example, I train also in North Shaolin Kung Fu. And, besides the guy with down sydrome, everybody there is interested in fighting. Well, even if they aren't they sure know I am interested, since from the first day I've been asking questions about sparring, Anyway, at least the most graduated in the style get to fight in tournaments. What about the Tai Chi or Xinyi people?
I know there are lots of people joining traditional styles that aren't much into getting punched out constantly, in other words, aren't there for fighting. No problem with that. The problem is, if we are all joining a fighting system, shouldn't at least he majority of us be interested in fighting?! Isn't it like we are all going to the gym to work out, but nobody is trying to get fit? Shouldn't it be the main focus?
Actually training to fight, and thinking that you'd like to train to fight are two very differnt things.

Most people, after they get a taste of what training to fight is like, they then understand that they don't like it.

After that, they either own up to it, or they pretend to be deadly masters who don't need to do it.

Training to fight, and thinking that you'd like to learn to fight are two very differnt things.

Most people after they get a taste of what training to fight is like, they then understand that they don't like it. Then they either own up to that, or the pretend.
True, true. But I am not even touching the subject of fighting effectively.
Tai Chi Chuan has become in the West (as far as I know, at least) a health art for seniors, altought it is supposed to be a fighting art. I have heard that some people in the States were doing something similar with Filipino Martial Arts, the "Stick Therapy". But when people think of Kali and Eskrima, they still think - fighting art!
I think this 'deviation' is happening to Aikido as well. Many practitioners have embraced so much the "love and peace" motto that it compromises the growth of the fighter, but I have heard that Moeshiba himself wasn't that caring with his students as his was the "dojo of hell'. But that's hear-say, I 've never practiced Aikido anyway.

Anyway, back to topic - are the people here in Bullshido that practice the internal styles doing it most for the health or the fighting? If for the fighting, how easy or hard it is to find others with the same goals? Our teacher is constantly complayning that he doesn't have many people to sparr with.


Xingyi used to be one of the main styles used to the Kushou matches in Taiwan. The Xingyi camp, usually connected with the Tang Shou Tao, was also the largest and used to train specifically for full contact matches. So yes there were a lot of Xingyi fighters. I don't know about now. I'm sure most of the full contact fighters in Taiwan train is some form of Sanda nowadays since it would be a more direct method.
Thanks for the info.

Taiji Quan for health is hardly solely a matter of Western marketing. At least, I don't think the Chinese Communist Party counts as a Western marketing firm, though there is the delicious irony of New Age silk-wearers going on about inner harmony and magical powers, not knowing that they are actually simply performing a series of Marxist-approved joint exercises.

At any rate, one cannot ask a question about specifics without actually looking at the history of specifics. "People don't like being hit" doesn't explain why TJQ is 95% "moving meditation" while Esrkima, as Whos points out, ain't.

Anyway, Yang Chengu and Maoists are to blame. They spread simplified and easy Yang forms across the world. There was a need for a series of safe exercises for old people and their versions filled that need. Good for them. I like it when old ladies walk straight and confident rather than being twisted and crippled by their own bones and joints.

But the other, more martial styles, have yet to be as effectively promulgated.

Taiji Quan for health is hardly solely a matter of Western marketing. At least, I don't think the Chinese Communist Party counts as a Western marketing firm, though there is the delicious irony of New Age silk-wearers going on about inner harmony and magical powers, not knowing that they are actually simply performing a series of Marxist-approved joint exercises.

At any rate, one cannot ask a question about specifics without actually looking at the history of specifics. "People don't like being hit" doesn't explain why TJQ is 95% "moving meditation" while Esrkima, as Whos points out, ain't.

Anyway, Yang Chengu and Maoists are to blame. They spread simplified and easy Yang forms across the world. There was a need for a series of safe exercises for old people and their versions filled that need. Good for them. I like it when old ladies walk straight and confident rather than being twisted and crippled by their own bones and joints.

But the other, more martial styles, have yet to be as effectively promulgated.
So the blame is actually "back home"? I see. Thanks for pointing that out.
But do you get to practice the old school fighting TJQ?

There are good instructors and there are 'cowboys.' Pick a good one and he or she should be able to teach health and/or combat deoending on what you want.

There are good instructors and there are 'cowboys.' Pick a good one and he or she should be able to teach health and/or combat deoending on what you want.

Fortunetly, that's what I got.