I guess I'm agnostic, with an adversion to anything atheistic, but also anything religious. I'm sure there's some sort of higher intelligence, but I also believe that science can one day explain, if not necessarily control/empirically understand it. I have a problem with religion in general, as I am very proud of my own moral ability to judge, and dislike it when other people insist that their moral way is "divine" and thus must apply to all levels of action, reasonable or unreasonable. Yet I must agree that there are some things that are just universally wrong, such as rape or murder, facts of life notwithstanding.

I guess you could call me a fence-sitter. Or a *****, as they are more generally known.

I haven't read anything beyond short articles by Harris. I've enjoyed some of his lectures, particularly more recent ones where he's stirring things up. I don't necessarily agree with everything or even many things he says, but I like that he's raising certain issues.

Gypsy, What is it about Harris you disagree with? I quite enjoyed the End of Faith as well as many lectures on youtube. I am very interested in your thoughts on the matter......

I guess I'm agnostic, with an adversion to anything atheistic, but also anything religious. I'm sure there's some sort of higher intelligence, but I also believe that science can one day explain, if not necessarily control/empirically understand it. I have a problem with religion in general, as I am very proud of my own moral ability to judge, and dislike it when other people insist that their moral way is "divine" and thus must apply to all levels of action, reasonable or unreasonable. Yet I must agree that there are some things that are just universally wrong, such as rape or murder, facts of life notwithstanding.

I guess you could call me a fence-sitter. Or a *****, as they are more generally known.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Agnosticism is the position that nothing can be known about the existance or non-existance of god. If you believe science will one day know, than are you really Agnostic?

Gypsy, What is it about Harris you disagree with? I quite enjoyed the End of Faith as well as many lectures on youtube. I am very interested in your thoughts on the matter......

Well this is totally off topic, but what the hell? I agree with him on far more than things I disagree with. I don't like either him or Hitchens holding the idea of faith based terrorists planning to end the world every other second. I think it's a very real threat, but isn't necessary to bring up as often as either of them do. It seems a little too much like a secular version of bringing up hell to scare someone into their belief system.

At the recent atheist conference in D.C. (I forget the name) he had a speech about identifying as an atheist. It was interesting to be sure, but a little bit silly. He argued that identifying oneself as an atheist gives weight to the other side since there is no term for one who doesn't believe in faeries, ghosts, astrology, etc. I agree with him that it's silly that we need this term, but when slavery, segregation and other things we consider to be self-evident as stupid practices were prevelant, there were anti-(insert problem here) as a transitional label. The issue is that atheists need some sort of label, and calling yourself a humanist, skeptic or otherwise is really just a different way of saying the same thing.

In general Harris also seems to be enamered with everything from Eastern tradition. I don't discriminate against said traditions, but I think he has a bit of an emotional attachment to things like meditation. He borders on irrational with this stuff, but thankfully as mentioned above skeptics like James Randi keep him in check.

There were other things in his lecture which I agreed with, but you asked for what I disagree with.

Ya'know I've got nothing against Dawkins or his views but he does one thing that particularly bothers me. Its how he equivlate's faith with mental Delusion. It doesn't bother me that thinks religion is nonsense, if thats his view all power to him. It's just I've known schizophrenics and I've seen the suffering they go through at the hands of sometimes emotionally painful delusions. I knew this one guy, he and I went to see the same psychiatrist.
He was in a car crash with his mom when he was younger and his mom died. The pain of that event would continue to haunt him through his delusions. According to him, they didn't come around often, probably once or twice every 5 months or so. But when they he felt it for days afterwards. I saw him once they did come around. It wasn't a pretty sight.

This anecdotal I know and I know all that video or didn't happen stuff.

But I mean when I think about guys like him go through all that.

Then I hear Dawkins call faith a delusion, faith is an emotion.

In my mind to equivalate an emotion with something that puts people through pain like that, something that they very little or no control over. To me it seems like a misuse of the word.

I mean he can call it The God falsehood, the God Bullshit, The God Lie, The God Fable, The God Stupidity for all I care!

But faith is something that the individual has control over, the delusion of the mentally ill is not.

Yes I know religion puts people through pain to, but again a person can choose whether or not to believe. A mentally ill person can rarely choose whether or not to have delusion unless he's on medication.

In general Harris also seems to be enamered with everything from Eastern tradition.

I thought I was the only one who noticed. :confused2

I thought I was the only one who noticed. :confused2


No, it's a common criticism of him.

I guess I'm agnostic, with an adversion to anything atheistic, but also anything religious. I'm sure there's some sort of higher intelligence, but I also believe that science can one day explain, if not necessarily control/empirically understand it.

What's your reasoning for positing the existence of a "higher intelligence" aka "God Light"?

No, it's a common criticism of him.

Yes, but you see, I thought I was the only one who noticed.


:confused2

What's your reasoning for positing the existence of a "higher intelligence" aka "God Light"?

It all comes down to whether you think the universe is a tree or a house. This is not a Zen creation parable, I will explain.

If you find a complex object laying around, you must make a decision. Did this object grow natrually (like a tree) or was the object built by some sort of designer (a house). Belief in a higher deity/deities/Vince McMahon means that you think the universe is a house, atheism means you believe it is a tree.

(Yes I know trees come from other trees, yes I know houses are built from trees, I never said it is a perfect metaphor but it works for me)

It all comes down to whether you think the universe is a tree or a house. This is not a Zen creation parable, I will explain.

If you find a complex object laying around, you must make a decision. Did this object grow natrually (like a tree) or was the object built by some sort of designer (a house). Belief in a higher deity/deities/Vince McMahon means that you think the universe is a house, atheism means you believe it is a tree.

(Yes I know trees come from other trees, yes I know houses are built from trees, I never said it is a perfect metaphor but it works for me)

Vince with many mainstream faiths you would be right, not all Faiths look at the universe that way though. There are religions out there that believe the universe was in existence long before their respective deities came into existence.

Ya'know I've got nothing against Dawkins or his views but he does one thing that particularly bothers me. Its how he equivlate's faith with mental Delusion. It doesn't bother me that thinks religion is nonsense, if thats his view all power to him. It's just I've known schizophrenics and I've seen the suffering they go through at the hands of sometimes emotionally painful delusions. I knew this one guy, he and I went to see the same psychiatrist.
He was in a car crash with his mom when he was younger and his mom died. The pain of that event would continue to haunt him through his delusions. According to him, they didn't come around often, probably once or twice every 5 months or so. But when they he felt it for days afterwards. I saw him once they did come around. It wasn't a pretty sight.

This anecdotal I know and I know all that video or didn't happen stuff.

But I mean when I think about guys like him go through all that.

Then I hear Dawkins call faith a delusion, faith is an emotion.

In my mind to equivalate an emotion with something that puts people through pain like that, something that they very little or no control over. To me it seems like a misuse of the word.

I mean he can call it The God falsehood, the God Bullshit, The God Lie, The God Fable, The God Stupidity for all I care!

But faith is something that the individual has control over, the delusion of the mentally ill is not.

Yes I know religion puts people through pain to, but again a person can choose whether or not to believe. A mentally ill person can rarely choose whether or not to have delusion unless he's on medication.

For arguements sake....
If you had a friend who believed that he had an invisible horse that followed him around, giving him guidance, would you feel that friend had faith, or was delusional? To further the point, imagine that he said that the horse created the universe and was all knowing and all powerful, yet could come up with absolutely zero proof of it's existance , other than the fact that he believes it to be so. Is that faith or delusion?

We are conditioned to accept the notion of God uncritically, yet in any other context it is completely ridiculous. If you look past the conditioning, I think you will see why it is delusional, and not just bullshit.....

Vince with many mainstream faiths you would be right, not all Faiths look at the universe that way though. There are religions out there that believe the universe was in existence long before their respective deities came into existence.

BURN, HERETIC, BUR....sorry, I let my religous delusion get the better of me for a second. Sorry if I misrepresented your views, pretty much everything I've ever encountered has been either atheism/agnosticism or some kind of monotheism. (Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Catholic, Baptist, etc.)

Vince with many mainstream faiths you would be right, not all Faiths look at the universe that way though. There are religions out there that believe the universe was in existence long before their respective deities came into existence.

Sorta like paganism...

Or McMahonism.

McMahonism.

If I had to pick any religion besides the one I currently follow....Vinnie Mac FTW!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idqa0Lv_k10

BURN, HERETIC, BUR....sorry, I let my religous delusion get the better of me for a second. Sorry if I misrepresented your views, pretty much everything I've ever encountered has been either atheism/agnosticism or some kind of monotheism. (Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Catholic, Baptist, etc.)

I never meant anything about misrepresentation, I was just wanted to point that out.