Three issues, One: Laws don't come from religion.

What I'm refering to here is that all extant tribal societies and those that only exist in the archaeological record were essentially theocratic. That is to say, the ruler of a particular society is also tied either closely to the religious leader, or is him/herself the religious leader. Laws and customs come from this.



Two; Even if religion does have a moderating effect on society, that doesn't mean that God actually exists.
The existance of God or god is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the perception that he/she/it/they exist/exists.


Three; How is religion essential to the survival of the victims of sectarian wars and suicide bombers?
From a greater historical perspective, only those societies that have as their basis some kind of religio-spiritual structure have survived. Survival of the fittest. Let's look at the question from this angle. Suppose you live in an area predisposed to certain conditions that made it difficult fot your ancestors to live, procreate, and pass on their genes. Imagine that through random mutation, their progeny evolve a genetic mechanism that makes their survival more of a guarantee than those without it and so are able to pass on their genes more successfully than those without that mutation. Fifty thousand years later your particular ethnic group is no longer effected adversely by those same conditions, however that genetic advantage happens to cause cancer and other quality-of-life and mortality affecting conditions later on in life or when presented with different conditions than those that allowed the mutation to spread into the population.

That is a similar situation. The ability to organize ourselves into small tribes based on religious perceptions of the world have won out over others, despite drawbacks inherent in it. Human beings are not predisposed to living in massive nation states on the order that is experienced in this day and age. Those things that allowed us to survive and compete against one another in relatively small, isolated groups becomes world wars, suicide bombers, holocausts, and George Bush Jr.

Originally Posted by Adam Alexander
"Everyone believes in God when they think they're about to die."

And that's the time when we are at our most lucid, rational, and likely to be correct.

That's the moment in my life when I was the most in touch with my truest desires. For that reason, because I know that at my most primal, I believe in God. Since that time, I've neither seen nor heard any benefit in refusing my human nature. How does it improve my life by not making the leap of faith when making the leap gives me comfort?




AA: It seems to me, as an earlier poster noted, it's in our nature to believe in God. So, if the good of our world rests on respecting our nature (natural inclination to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, recognizing property rights, etc.) and the places in the world, by not respecting that nature, have caused widespread evil and suffering for people (USSR, China, etc.), why would we try to divorce ourselves from our natural tendency to worship?

Petter: Yes -- just look at the oppressive regimes and general contempt for nature evinced in, for example, Sweden, Norway, Finland, and the Netherlands. Truly, secularism is an inevitable path to communist dictatorship.

Yes, but those countries aren't world powers. The single true world power that exists today is here because of respecting our nature. Those countries have lost the race.

Besides, are you arguing that we shouldn't respect our human nature?





AA: If an individual doesn't believe, what motivation is there to make an effort to undermine other's belief in a public setting? Isn't it more reasonable that that person go to churches and seek out leaders who should be experts in that field?

You can invite a priest to post here, if you want. It's the forum not the participants.

Sure I can. However, that doesn't explain the questioner's motivation to ask questions of faith to those of questionable authority on the subject.




AA: I believe in God because I'm human. Without God, life is meaningless when examined. It all goes back to nothingness.

I feel kind of sad for you. Can you find no meaning in simply being human? Can you create no meaning for yourself, you fantastically complex animal of billions of cells, each of which is a sophisticated piece of bio-machinery; is there nothing in the laws of nature, the power of the stars, the span of the universe, the complex neurological reactions we call 'love' or 'awe' -- does nothing of this mean anything to you?

I felt sad for me too when I was in that state of mind. Depending on your perspective, either unfortunately or fortunately, many of us have a drive to ask "why". I think, therefore, I am. If you recognize life as ending at death--hence consciousness ceasing to exist--then one is forced to recognize that happiness's importance is pointless because I will no longer think--be conscious. Without consciousness, there is, and never was, anything...Life without God is pointless.



Do you truly need to have meaning externally imposed on you by your god?


Human nature is internal. Belief in God is internal. God is internal. God tells us what we are.





AA: However, there are those that seek to argue that God is bad.

Who? I'm not aware of any. I'm a person who argues that God is fictional, and that believing in fiction as truth is pernicious.

That's kind of desperate, isn't it? You're right. Revision: There are those who argue that believing in God is bad.





AA: It's human to want to name things. God is the name we give to the energies in the world that minimize suffering and are orderly.


I guess there's not much God in the world then. Or at least he's tucked away in some other part of the universe. Because if you'd get your head out of your ass and realize that even though God let you survive the attempted drive-by shooting by making the assailants' penises explode simultaneously, he still lets so much **** happen that he should be hanged.

YOUR life is good = God did it.

Someone else's life is **** = what? God wasn't there? He's too busy pampering you? God doesn't care about black people?

That's the perception of God that I was saying people walk away with as children.

God, being the Almighty that does all good, doesn't fit the real world. A more practical, adult version of God is the one where he sets up the rules of the universe. Why didn't I get shot that night? Maybe because I was a regular runner and could run fairly fast. Maybe because I had run into enough backyards to not be afraid of dogs catching me and was quick to dart through a yard. Maybe because they didn't clean their weapon and it jammed. Maybe because it wasn't a drive-by at all and just a dope who didn't turn his headlights on and was looking for a friends house.

God as I believe it, launches a tsunami to teach people that they should be spending their time building dikes or something or they just shouldn't be living there.

You read the Bible, and God isn't nice. However, nice people don't want to terrify children, so they ease them into the whole "God might let your parents die of AIDS if they choose to participate in orgies".

Like I said, there's different churches too. Obviously, you recognize some of the contradictions made by people who don't have a real practical grasp on the world. However, and I'm not saying this as an advertisement, if a person wants religion, they can't just walk into a church and believe that they're getting the right one for them. There's alot more to it.



I went to Jesuit High School ("Catholicism isn't the real Christianity") and once a preist said that while God might not actively make the rainbow, we should be thankful that he created a world where rainbows existed.

Because I referenced the tsunami and drive-by above, I'll just respond to this.

If you look at the Bible as a set of directions for nations to maintain stability and to minimize suffering as much as possible, the priest's intention can be theorized as an effort to instill a value garnered from the Bible to realize that goal.

There are people in this world that will hurt you. Those people, like God, are often times power holders. If you can appreciate the rainbow in the face of a tsunami, you can appreciate your brother having a job in the face of his boss repo'ing your car. But if you spit on your brothers boss because he repo'ed your car, your brother loses too. If that makes sense.

It's a concept I settled for myself a long time ago and I've never articulated it. If need be, though, I'd be happy to revisit it after giving it more thought and a little research.

That's the moment in my life when I was the most in touch with my truest desires. For that reason, because I know that at my most primal, I believe in God.
At that moment, you were in touch with your very most primal desire -- wanting, at any cost, no matter the ways or the consequences, to stay alive. Evolution can hardwire nothing stronger into a creature that partakes in reproduction (a cagey cavat? It is necessary to account for creatures like sterile insect workers). I wouldn't be surprised if the mind leapt at any desperate hope, no matter how remote and unrealistic.


Since that time, I've neither seen nor heard any benefit in refusing my human nature. How does it improve my life by not making the leap of faith when making the leap gives me comfort?
Refusing human nature includes such things as not selfishly doing whatever you can to maximise your own benefits (when you can get away with it), not having sex with as many women as you can to improve your reproductive success... Monogamy defies human nature. Contraception defies the very basic 'purpose' which evolution hardwired us for.

Also, this discussion includes the credibility of the god hypothesis, and feeling better about things doesn't mean that your reasons for feeling better are rational or that the beliefs they are based on are true.


Yes, but those countries aren't world powers. The single true world power that exists today is here because of respecting our nature. Those countries have lost the race.
Lost the race? Lost the race? Those countries consistently top the lists of the highest standards of living in the world! In what sense have they lost any meaningful race? True, they are not military superpowers, because they are freaking tiny countries. New York City has about as many inhabitants as Sweden; the NYC metropolitan area has about the same population number as Scandinavia. Additionally, the Scandinavian countries have all been neutral and peaceful for a very long time -- and when's the last time the Netherlands ran an arms race with anyone?


Besides, are you arguing that we shouldn't respect our human nature?
I wasn't arguing that, but I do consistently hold that it's a lunatic fallacy to equate 'natural' with either 'good' or 'bad'. Judge the value of an action based on its consequences, not based on whether it falls in accordance with your instincts.

You might find, if you did some research, that many or most religions encourage people to curb many of their natural urges.


Sure I can. However, that doesn't explain the questioner's motivation to ask questions of faith to those of questionable authority on the subject.
Who does have real authority on a subject that appears to be imaginary? Can I not (to take a cue from Dawkins) question the reality of the Tooth Fairy without first consulting a reputable fairyologist?

Besides, we are here to discuss what we believe, not what someone else says we should believe. Surely you do your own thinking?


If you recognize life as ending at death--hence consciousness ceasing to exist--then one is forced to recognize that happiness's importance is pointless because I will no longer think--be conscious. Without consciousness, there is, and never was, anything...Life without God is pointless.
Oddly enough, I, an atheist, find plenty of meaning in life. I try to be happy and to make people around me happy. I enjoy knowledge, so I explore and read and learn, and teach when I can, to help others appreciate the glory of the world that really does surround us. The fact that my consciousness will cease when I die doesn't make it any less valuable to me -- more valuable, rather: These four-score years or so that I get are all that I get, so I'd better make the most of it now. I'll have no chance either to enjoy myself or to make up my mistakes to others after that.



Human nature is internal. Belief in God is internal. God is internal. God tells us what we are.
Purely internal, eh? So essentially, your god is inseparable from that voice of your mind that emerges as an effect of the almost inconceivable complexity of the interaction of your neurological processes?


God as I believe it, launches a tsunami to teach people that they should be spending their time building dikes or something or they just shouldn't be living there.
Nice guy. If I believed that he existed, I'd either cower in abject fear of his capricious maliciousness, or, if I were brave enough, I would speak up against his cruelty.

That's the moment in my life when I was the most in touch with my truest desires. For that reason, because I know that at my most primal, I believe in God. Since that time, I've neither seen nor heard any benefit in refusing my human nature. How does it improve my life by not making the leap of faith when making the leap gives me comfort?

Why should I live in this world when I can live in a world of crack cocaine? Why shouldn't I be comfortable?

Oh, right, because sometimes you have to do something uncomfortable to survive.



That's the perception of God that I was saying people walk away with as children.

God, being the Almighty that does all good, doesn't fit the real world. A more practical, adult version of God is the one where he sets up the rules of the universe. Why didn't I get shot that night? Maybe because I was a regular runner and could run fairly fast. Maybe because I had run into enough backyards to not be afraid of dogs catching me and was quick to dart through a yard. Maybe because they didn't clean their weapon and it jammed. Maybe because it wasn't a drive-by at all and just a dope who didn't turn his headlights on and was looking for a friends house.

God as I believe it, launches a tsunami to teach people that they should be spending their time building dikes or something or they just shouldn't be living there.

You read the Bible, and God isn't nice. However, nice people don't want to terrify children, so they ease them into the whole "God might let your parents die of AIDS if they choose to participate in orgies".

Like I said, there's different churches too. Obviously, you recognize some of the contradictions made by people who don't have a real practical grasp on the world. However, and I'm not saying this as an advertisement, if a person wants religion, they can't just walk into a church and believe that they're getting the right one for them. There's alot more to it.

This is why I can't stop myself from calling religious people morons.

You're saying that God threw a tsunami at a whole bunch of people because he didn't want them to live there?

Honestly, it would have been better for the rest of us if you HAD been shot that day.

Addendum to the purpose bit: You claim that there is no purpose unless an entity -- "God" -- invents one. I claim that there is no purpose unless some entity invents one, but I think that we humans have to be responsible and formulate it for ourselves. Cut the invisible apron strings.

Why do debates about the existence or non-existence of God/god ALWAYS end up being about Christianity?

Goddamn, I don't go on for TWO days, and there are already ANOTHER giant atheist clusterfuck?! I'm a "moderate atheist," which basically means that I'm like all of you without the smug sense of superiority. Honestly, will you people shut the **** up? Let lovers love, haters hate, and prayers pray. I'm changing my avatar because of all of you, with a witty caption.

A kid in my history class today was asked to define Religion. He said, "An System of beliefs attempting to explain things that can't be defined by science." Let's ignore the blatant presentism for a moment, and take a case study: me. I am Jewish. I don't believe in God. I believe in Evolution, I believe in modern medicine, I believe in health inspection and all that. Have I no religion? Of course I have a religion.

I posted this here instead of Amp's thread simply because this one is longer and Amp's original post was way, WAY to stupid for me to even bear. But make no mistake, this goes for both of them, and all of YOU who scroll from page to page nodding your heads.

You make me just as sick as any televangelist ever has.

1.So does this mean that Karl Gotch, Eddie Bravo, and the rest of those who challenge the beliefs of Kano et al on wearing the gi, leglocks, etc. will flee into the Eye of Terror and be made daemon princes by the power of Chaos?:new_astha




Kano is the Emperor?


That explains a few things.






On topic, something that's always amused me is Atheists who have a lucky 'X'(where X is anything from a rabbit's foot to a 30 year old used condom).

Not saying it applies to anyone here, or it's representative of Ateists as a whole, just mentioning that it amuses me. Kinda like an old buddy I knew in the Army. He was Jewish, loudly proclaimed himself so, demanded the right to wear his camo yamaca on holidays, etc....then would sit down with you and consume a big pile o bacon. He was a fun guy.

I always ask for samhein off if I am rostered on...mainly because it pisses me off that every Christian festival is classed as a holiday

Maybe I should put in for overtime if I ever have to work it......

Why do debates about the existence or non-existence of God/god ALWAYS end up being about Christianity?

This debate is about each individual explaining what type of god they believe in and why they believe, what evidence or reason they used to come to such a conclusion. To date, the all we've heard is that god makes them feel good, essentially a non arguement. As for why Christianity? I don't know, because the god that Christianity claims exists is an easily disprovable Hypothesis. It is just the most common belief of this forums posters I assume. Unless Jesus is trying to reach us through the webs.....oh how he works in mysterious ways.
I would also like to comment on the idea that god is in our nature. I don't believe this to be so at all. It is our nature to question and understand the world around us so as to manipulate it in a way that helps us propogate our Genes more effectively (the goal of all living creatures) God was just the best our species could come up with in the days when our understanding of the world was childlike. Those days have long since past, the way ideas and information can be accessed by people in all corners of the globe makes such beliefs very outdated and unnecesary.

Goddamn, I don't go on for TWO days, and there are already ANOTHER giant atheist clusterfuck?! I'm a "moderate atheist," which basically means that I'm like all of you without the smug sense of superiority. Honestly, will you people shut the **** up? Let lovers love, haters hate, and prayers pray. I'm changing my avatar because of all of you, with a witty caption.

A kid in my history class today was asked to define Religion. He said, "An System of beliefs attempting to explain things that can't be defined by science." Let's ignore the blatant presentism for a moment, and take a case study: me. I am Jewish. I don't believe in God. I believe in Evolution, I believe in modern medicine, I believe in health inspection and all that. Have I no religion? Of course I have a religion.

I posted this here instead of Amp's thread simply because this one is longer and Amp's original post was way, WAY to stupid for me to even bear. But make no mistake, this goes for both of them, and all of YOU who scroll from page to page nodding your heads.

You make me just as sick as any televangelist ever has.

While your rant is nice and angerfilled it won't stop anybody. Also, we didn't come emailing you about this thread. We are discussing it on an open forum, you are coming here and telling us not to do something. You are being an evangelist for not debating religion vs. atheism.

As to Hannibalistic,
because only Christians have come to debate and most of us have grown in predominantly Christian environments. It's what we know.

But as a believer I would have to assume that you believe you have it right, if not why believe. As such wouldnt be your duty, to god, to see to it that those who are in danger of damnation are saved, if possible?
As an atheist I don't give a rat's rear what you believe or don't as long as you leave me alone.


That's fine. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I live the way I live. If someone wants to know what and why I believe and they actually ask me, I tell them. Nothing pisses me off MORE THAN people shoving religion down someone else's neck. I will not do that. An atheist once told me that the best advertisement for christianity is Jkdbuck76---the way he lives his life, the way he treats others.

There were. The church used to make barbecues out of them.

the church also made bbq's out of other churches. that blows goats.

[
quote=Uri Shatil]Goddamn, I don't go on for TWO days, and there are already ANOTHER giant atheist clusterfuck?! I'm a "moderate atheist," which basically means that I'm like all of you without the smug sense of superiority. Honestly, will you people shut the **** up? Let lovers love, haters hate, and prayers pray. I'm changing my avatar because of all of you, with a witty caption.

Why is qustioning things smug? I thought that it was simply the only sensible path a person could take. What is so smug about trying to understand where people get their beliefs from? Why don't you shut the **** up if you have nothing to contribute? That sounds pretty fucking smug to me.





I posted this here instead of Amp's thread simply because this one is longer and Amp's original post was way, WAY to stupid for me to even bear. But make no mistake, this goes for both of them, and all of YOU who scroll from page to page nodding your heads.

You make me just as sick as any televangelist ever has.
[/QUOTE]

what is it about this discussion that makes you so scared? You are giving Atheists a bad name.

That's fine. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I live the way I live. If someone wants to know what and why I believe and they actually ask me, I tell them. Nothing pisses me off MORE THAN people shoving religion down someone else's neck. I will not do that. An atheist once told me that the best advertisement for christianity is Jkdbuck76---the way he lives his life, the way he treats others.

We are asking you, and are still kind of waiting for an answer........Please convince us by telling us why you are so convinced.

I would also like to comment on the idea that god is in our nature. I don't believe this to be so at all. It is our nature to question and understand the world around us so as to manipulate it in a way that helps us propogate our Genes more effectively (the goal of all living creatures) God was just the best our species could come up with in the days when our understanding of the world was childlike. Those days have long since past, the way ideas and information can be accessed by people in all corners of the globe makes such beliefs very outdated and unnecesary.

Not that God is a concrete part of our nature, per se. That's a bit specific. Religion and feelings of religion and spirituality exist because our brains through natural selection are predisposed towards those feelings. How they are manifested socially varies from one group of people to another, as well as one time frame to another, but it has held out and been consistent for many tens of thousands of years. If it is true that mankind as a whole no longer need this, and will do better without it, it'll take at least 50,000 years before it recedes. That is a big if, that those days have past for everyone.