A belief system in itself may not produce atrocities, but an ideology is very much capable of motivating people to do awful, awful things. When an idiology is coupled with a belief system that assigns some people (women, homosexuals, unbelievers, Western infidels, what have you) you have the ingredients for a very dangerous psyche. If you tell me that political conflicts are an important factor in the strain between the Western and the Muslim world right now I will certainly agree with you, but can you honestly say that you think religion has nothing to do with it?

Let us also remember that this thread started as a discussion of morality. As I pointed out, somewhat facetiously, morals are certainly laid out in 'sacred' texts, and faithfully adhered to by some -- but they are not necessarily good morals.

Great post. Long, and yet you kept it organized.

No, religion is a portion of the equation, definitely, but not the primary driving force. I see religions, ideologies, & the like, more as the igniter, or the primer, the blasting cap if you will, to much larger and more pervasive issues, such as the emotion of anger. Anger over the starvation of oneself or loved ones, anger over the invasion & subsequent occupation of a foreign military into your lands, anger over perceived powerlessness in one's life & the ardent need to express such anger upon any party that seems to fit the bill of scapegoat in the moment. The list goes on ad nauseum.

There have been plenty of Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc, that have lived peaceful lives. Many people are tempted to join extremist groups and think twice about it, and more than a few I'm sure have joined such groups and ended up leaving them.

I'm waking up early to do my running, but I decided to pop in and see what was up.

I speak Hebrew fluently, and ahlmah would, in fact, imply that she had not known a man's touch because of the ancient traditions of the Hebrews. She was still young and immature; she was not supposed to consummate her marriage until she had matured. In modern society, an ahlmah, though rarely used in modern Hebrew, would be taken to mean a girl of age eleven, twelve, maybe thirteen. I could be mistaken about that part, and it could apply to any teenage girl, though I doubt it. Again, it's rarely used in modern Hebrew. But if somebody describable by this word were to have sexual intercourse, she would, in ancient Israel, be stoned. In modern Israel, she would have to of been stoned prior to said intercourse. The point is, if she was an ahlmah, then she was almost definitely a virgin. So, your whole mistranslation theory is pretty much bubkus.

And the answer to your question, Petter, is in many cases simply tradition. It's the one thing people have that connects them with their ancestors. That's the only thing that keeps even my secularist Judaism alive, is the knowledge that on this same time in the lunar cycle my great, great, great, great, greatgreatgreat grandaddy sang these same prayers for the same thing.

And all of you stop comparing religion to weapons. I used to be very pro-gun, I thought that it was a matter of personal safety. Then my mother's friend's nephew, whom I knew and was only my age (fourteen), accidentally shot himself with his father's pistol. He was not suicidal, he was a totally normal kid. Religion is not comparable to guns. Yes, guns to increase household accident rates.

My earlier point, by the way, about atheism being capable of causing violence, is that no religion causes violence, but they are merely used as excuses. Atheism has already served as an excuse, and it will no doubt serve again.

I see religions, ideologies, & the like, more as the igniter, or the primer, the blasting cap if you will,

:qleft6::5bomb:

Wonderful 180 degree turn.

The peculiar thing about religion is people's willingness to completely shut down their critical facilities, no matter how beautifully they otherwise demonstrate that they have them.


Ha! How true. I absolutely agree. Religion is like autopilot to some people. Just one more excuse not thing think critically...



The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Funny, if the god of the bible is unchanging, as it says so damn often in there, then what the hell happened between the old and new testaments? & how the hell does ol' Jesus "Love Your Brother As Yourself" Christ fit into the equation? That's definitely some weird **** to try & wrap your noodle around...

:qleft6::5bomb:

Wonderful 180 degree turn.


How's that? :eusa_thin

... no religion causes violence,

So you would have people believe that what religion teaches has absolutely no effect on what actions the indoctrinated carry out?

Aren't you being somewhat disingenuous?

Sorry? Did you just quote Richard Dawkins? Sorry, I couldn't hear him, because his voice is always muffled by the walls of his colon.

So the God of story isn't such great guy. I mean, he gave the Hebrews a nice fat slice of fertile land, led them out of slavery, gave them thousands of descendents, built them into a strong empire, and all the while protecting them against enemies.

Do you see what I just did? I just pulled a half-dozen or so examples and made this God that was just described as awful now seem amazing. Don't try describing God. Too many stories, too many faces. Sometimes he shows mercy, sometimes not. It's a futile effort.

I have to go run.

I see religions, ideologies, & the like, more as the igniter, or the primer, the blasting cap if you will,


Man is not a victim of his creations

Hmmm.

So you would have people believe that what religion teaches has absolutely no effect on what actions the indoctrinated carry out?

Aren't you being somewhat disingenuous?

Of course religion has some effect, but only upon those that choose to believe at some point. Belief is what gives nonsensical religions and ideologies authority during our decision-making processes.

Hmmm.

Man chooses to believe. If you don't get that, keep humming, & I've got something for you to hum on right here...

So you would have people believe that what religion teaches has absolutely no effect on what actions the indoctrinated carry out?

Aren't you being somewhat disingenuous?

Great sample there. You could of taken my entire sentence.

Religion doesn't cause violence, it's used as an excuse for violence.

Of course the religion has an effect on what its followers do. But any religion, or even any belief, can be used as an excuse for violence. Does the Koran say that you get seventy virgins for bombing Americans? No. It says that martyrs are rewarded with seventy virgins. Extremist clerics then tell young men that suicide bombing Americans or Israelis is martyrdom, and they'll get seventy virgins. But really it's not even close to martyrdom, because they're not dying for a belief. They're dying in a war. These extremist clerics are doing just that; they are waging war against Western civilization. All it is is war, and the clerics are the recruiters.

See, when I put it that way, it doesn't really matter what the religion is. I could take Christianity, and tell you as a priest that dying for God will get you God's greatest rewards, because that's what Jesus Christ did and by dying for him you are submitting to ultimate acceptance. I could tell you that Jews are polluting our Christian society. And you, the dedicated follower, would go bomb a synagogue. Sounds far-fetched, yes, but it could easily happen. Just think about Nazi propaganda.

I really ened to go run. Bye.

Great sample there. You could of taken my entire sentence.

Religion doesn't cause violence, it's used as an excuse for violence.

Of course the religion has an effect on what its followers do. But any religion, or even any belief, can be used as an excuse for violence. Does the Koran say that you get seventy virgins for bombing Americans? No. It says that martyrs are rewarded with seventy virgins. Extremist clerics then tell young men that suicide bombing Americans or Israelis is martyrdom, and they'll get seventy virgins. But really it's not even close to martyrdom, because they're not dying for a belief. They're dying in a war. These extremist clerics are doing just that; they are waging war against Western civilization. All it is is war, and the clerics are the recruiters.

See, when I put it that way, it doesn't really matter what the religion is. I could take Christianity, and tell you as a priest that dying for God will get you God's greatest rewards, because that's what Jesus Christ did and by dying for him you are submitting to ultimate acceptance. I could tell you that Jews are polluting our Christian society. And you, the dedicated follower, would go bomb a synagogue. Sounds far-fetched, yes, but it could easily happen. Just think about Nazi propaganda.

I really ened to go run. Bye.

Great post. + rep

Of course religion has some effect, but only upon those that choose to believe at some point. Belief is what gives nonsensical religions and ideologies authority during our decision-making processes.

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/3350/relpiesi9.gif

I like pie, too.


What's your point?

I like pie, too.


What's your point?

Jewish R l3ss th4n Oth3r, LOL.

Jewish R l3ss th4n Oth3r, LOL.

You know that the only Jews that count are those five bankers I keep hearing about...