Hi.

As a BJJ newbie and a former judoka, I´ve noticed I am usually able to get to the Hon Kesa Gatame position (hip throws usually leave me there, and I can usually grabt the neack and the arm and pass the guard even when I start sparring on the ground). For those who don´t know, this is the Hon Kesa Gatame.

http://www.judoclubbrunssum.nl/knoppen/algemeen/technieken/houdgrepen/(hon-)kesa-gatame.gif

Now, getting there, either using a hip throw or moving from side control is relatively easy for me (I´m used to competitive judo rules), but I believe this position does not allow many submissions.

I usually use a move my BJJ coach taught me he called "leque": I put the arm I´m controlling over my right knee and press it downwards with my left leg, while holding the hand (thumb up) with my own hand. It is a somewhat crude submission, but I have used it successfully against people more experienced than me (some blue belts and even a couple of purple belts), and at the moment it is my best submission.

But everyone in my gym is now wary of that move, so I´d like to diversify a bit - and I´d like to practice other submissions from the HKG, specially because I can still get many people there, even if I can´t always finish them.

Now, the coach also taught a transition from the HKG to a triangle choke, but I´d like to know what else can I do while keeping that position. All help is appreciated.

Thanks.

PS: Did a search, found nothing, etc.

You're one day to late for this topic

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59686

Oops.

Well, in my defense I had no idea that position was called scarf hold in english. In portuguese we call it "fundamental".

Still, I suppose the subject of that thread is not the same as this one. I am not questioning HKG (yes, many BJJ blue belts believe it is a shitty position because you supposedly can get the other guy´s back), I actually KNOW it works - I just want more submission options.

I've tried to tell people that I "know" it works too. No one believes me :(

I will however tell you about my favorite super deadly sekret sub from kesa. Its similar to the one you are doing except instead of a straight armbar you put their arm in the americana position. Then hook the knee of your lower leg over their hand. Next put both hands on the back of their head then slowly push your hips forward while pulling their head up. NEVER do this fast. It is very damaging if they don't tap.

Its the second move in this video but I finish it a little differently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW7CpZUpMyE

Doesn't that crank their spine? Or am I understanding that wrong?

God bless you for that video WhiteShark, thanks a lot. I´ll try that move next time I roll.

Vince, your sub sounds a bit dangerous to me, you pull too much of your weight off the ground during the movement. HKG is a solid pin, but I wouldn´t push it that far...

Incidentally, I think those that say it doesn´t work simply have never faced a decent judoka. Heathens.

Doesn't that crank their spine? Or am I understanding that wrong?

Mine? Yes, it is a neck crank and a shoulder attack.

Another thread on this topic from ~2 years ago:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22566

you fail at t3h s34rch

Also, when I visited Neko's dojo, I saw one of the blackbelts showing a sub from kesa that involved (using Soju's pic of kesa) 1) grabbing the pants at the right knee with the right hand (keeping the forearm right at the neck) and 2) pushing the forehead down with the left hand. Me no think that sub is legal in Judo - if/when I go there again, I'll ask for a breakdown of the sub.

Another one from El Macho. It sounds promising.

YES, I suck at searching. But hey, this thread was made specifically to discuss HKG submissions, I don´t think this was ever done here.

I immediately thought of the second move in whiteshark's vid. Those are the two I learned from Kesa, so far. Though, also like whiteshark, the finish I learned for the second one was a bit different than the vid. I was taught to crank the bent arm under your leg like you would apply a key lock.

If you're doing the arm around head version, arm triangle is another possibility. For me, it's usually arm triangle or straight arm bar. Often times, I'll just use kesa as a transition move.

If I catch the underhook on the far side arm instead, I'll go Ude Garame/keylock. I'll secure, switch to straight side control and lock it up.

Even better with the far side arm underhooked is to get a grip, and as he's trying to get up on his hip and take your back, flip your hips and step up over his head, and spin to far side arm bar. Since he's up on his hip oftentimes, you'll sit very deep under his shoulder after you spin. The arm bar will be very deep, and I'll sometimes get people tapping even before their arm is extended, as it feels like a shoulder lock. Plus, you always get style points for a far side spin.

Oops.

Well, in my defense I had no idea that position was called scarf hold in english. In portuguese we call it "fundamental".

Still, I suppose the subject of that thread is not the same as this one. I am not questioning HKG (yes, many BJJ blue belts believe it is a shitty position because you supposedly can get the other guy´s back), I actually KNOW it works - I just want more submission options.

It is extremely easy to take the back and/or armbar, and/or sweep someone in that position, so you have to be very aware and active if you hold it. I personally think it's only good for brief transitions. Since I KNOW how easy it is to attack from the bottom I don't recommmend holding it for prolonged periods of time

It is extremely easy to take the back and/or armbar, and/or sweep someone in that position, so you have to be very aware and active if you hold it. I personally think it's only good for brief transitions. Since I KNOW how easy it is to attack from the bottom I don't recommmend holding it for prolonged periods of time

I´m afraid you are wrong, according to my experience, and according to my BJJ coach´s opinion, and according to many many HKG fans on this very site.

In fact, no one EVER took my back when I did the HKG. Reversals yes, but getting my back nope, not at all.

In fact I am usually able to hold down the HKG for as long as I like. Some people have actually tapped out of my HKG without a submission, they just realized they were not going anywhere.

So I am now interested in submissions. The position itself is good, thank you very much.

PS: No offense meant, it´s just that I don´t feel like defending the HKG on this thread, specially considering I tapped out two blue belts yesterday from this position (and I´ve been doing BJJ for only six months).

I have had the same experience WCL. I can hold blues and whites there forever. Purples and Blacks not so much. They don't take my back but they do reverse me pretty fast.

I have had the same experience WCL. I can hold blues and whites there forever. Purples and Blacks not so much. They don't take my back but they do reverse me pretty fast.

Funny thing is, there are two blues who keep insisting it is a shitty position, even though they keep falling for it. Talk about being blind by choice.

Most of the blues and all the purples, however, say it is a cool position but they don´t want to risk doing it themselves.

And the one black belt, our coach, says it is my best move and I should perfect it. In fact he said he would not usually recommend HKG because it is risky, but since I have good control I should work on it.

Judo for the win.