Ok, here we go.

It seems that the general consensus here on Bullshido is that TKD sucks. Many reasons are given from patterns/forms training to weak sparring practices.
Granted these critcisms are often true of most TKD schools and many TKD organizations.

Most everyone here will agree that with "alive" training, and a more "Martial Art" oriented mind set, then almost any style can become effective.

It seems to me that in order to bring TKD back on track to a more SD capable style, we must start a new style of TKD.
Karate has many dufferent styles as well as Kung Fu. Most seem to be in the same category as TKD, but there are a few (Kyokushin Karate) that seem to value good hard sparring and realistic training practices.

So if starting a new style of TKD will help, then how does one go about it?

I would like for this to be a serious discussion on the topic.

Here is a list of things that I think we need right off.

1) A name. I feel that it must be Tae Kwon Do.

2) A belt system. Lots of people like belt systems, and TKD is what is considered a TMA.
White, Yellow, Orange, Green, Purple, Blue, Brown, Red, Poom [Red/Black] and BB.

2a) Each belt has physical requirements the practitioner MUST meet before being able to test for the next belt.
For instance, I think that a BB should be able to kick an equal sized [height] opponent in the head. PERIOD. If you cant, then you shouldnt be a BB.
I also dont feel that anyone under the age of 13 should get a BB. They can get a junior BB, say a BB with a stripe on it, but only if they are able to fullfill the physical requirements. Possibly let them be a BB if they are capable. I dont know.

2b) We must set the PR {physical Requirements} so that it is safe to assume that no one under 13 will be able to perform them.

2c) Time in grade. I think 3 years is a little soon to reach a BB level in any art. However, I am not sure about how to do belt promotions. Should we go to the merit system? (You are very good so you get promoted). I dont like that one because it opens itself up to "the good 'ol boy" system. I prefer say 5-6 months in grade before being eligible to test.

2d) PR's.....push ups, sit ups, jumping jacks, flexibilty. SO many of each p/up and s/ups in a a set amount of time, be able to do j/jacks for a set amount of time without stopping. Have flexibilty requirements.
As I said earlier, each belt will have different requirements.

3) Sparring. Many schools allow their students to start sparring in class at green belt. (about 6-9 months after starting.) I think one should be able to spar right away.

3a) Limit the techniques each belt can do [see 3b]. This way they can learn control, timing and other things, and gain new techniques at each belt.

3b) Allow takedowns . NO GRAPPLING. If someone wants to learn to grapple, then they should take the proper art for it. Simple leg sweeps and trips, no throws. Also allow elbows and knees and low kicks. These are already in the patterns (no they havent been [I]discovered by me).

3c) Harder contact sparring. Require shin and foot protection (MT pads for example, but there are other style gear) no shitty dipped foam hand gear. Good gloves, Say boxing style gloves for lower ranks and MMA style gloves for higher tanks who have sweeps and takedowns. [I]No headgear or dobaks.

4) Patterns.... This is TKD, so it HAS to to have patterns. They are required for each belt level, but they wont be the main focus of class. Of course, anyone should be able to learn and be proficient at a pattern in 6 months time without spending lots of time in class on them.

5) Class time. No less than 1 hour. This will depend largely on each individual school.

6) An Organization. While I feel that large Organizations have their drawbacks, they can have one good plus. Rank certification. BB need to be ertified through the main Organization. Each instructor will be certified by the Org. to ensure quality control.
Of course, the finer points of this can come later, after we iron out the style.

There is more that I am sure is needed, so please feel free to contribute.

Can you give some examples for 2b? One thing that comes to mind that adults should be able to do but children (in almost every circumstance) absolutely can't is lift a certain amount of weight. Is this the kind of thing you're referring to?

Patterns?

How many total do you have?

Serious question and then I'll give you my reasons for asking.

Seeing as how I have joined this new venture at the begining could i plz have a grand master title and as for a style name how about t3h r341 TKD.

For an answer to this I'll give you some information about my club.
About 20 years back they were regularly competing in TKD and MA events. As they became exposed to the rules of TKD comp's they began questioning the validity of them.
It got so bad that they left the main bodies in disgust saying "If we teach our people to fight like that they'd get killed on the street. We can't do that to people and sleep at night".
Some people still wanted to compete so they directed them towards kickboxing, as was the thing to do after the Van Damme movies :-) It was the new kid on the block MA to do and it was really big here for a while. It was also more realistic than where TKD was headed.
Some people just wanted the kickboxing training so they started a second associated club.
Over the years the want to compete as kickboxers diminished and the focus on street effective training began. As a result for my brown I had to fight full contact bare knuckle and for my black multiple opponents full contact (fortunately with goves this time). From the two gradings I ended up with a rib ripped off the costal cartilage and a fractured eye socket (funny story that).
The senior TKDers are allowed head punches and whatever level of contact they feel safe with. There's no tap and stop, it's done in rounds like for boxing, but the rules are very strictly adhered too.

Now, the kickboxing is an extension of the TKD. The senior TKDers do very traditional forms and a lot of reasonable self defence. The kickboxing is where the gi and ceremony are removed, where they spar, where the conditioning, bag hitting and focus mits come out, and we learn the 'finer' points of belting eachother around and taking out an opponent fast. At its most advanced levels there are no gloves and few rules, just a little respect that we still have to go to work the next day, something we fail at now and then :-)

But, we know we are a relic club. Even within our association our little country town club is the only one with a reasonable kickboxing element to it. We use kickboxing rules like old school judo used randori, then we train the martial component, or street techniques, and they're not all defencive.
About a year ago at the annual gradings where all clubs in the association gather from all over the state my instructor said something interesting that should weigh heavily on most TKD schools. He's one of the most senior and hard core members of the organisation.
At the end of the gradings each head instructor of each club stood up and congatulated people on how proud they were and all that usual stuff. My instructor stood up and just said this "A lot of you here were having trouble with my kickboxers. That's because they're trained to hit what they're aiming at." and sat down.

I have to admit I've been impressed by the youtube TKD from Poland I've seen too.

Tangent:
This is a rough example and isnt set in stone but say by the rank of BB soneone should be able to 50 pushups in 2 minutes, jumping jacks continuously for 3 minutes, 50 situps in 2 minutes, and then the flexibility test. We can add more and change the time limits as we see fit until a general consensus can be reached among us.

IIF:
One pattern for each belt level. They will be the current ITF style patterns. No sparring combos/kumite or other nonsense. I believe that the longest underank pattern is Chong-Moo (Poom belt) at 32 moves.
In six months time anyone should be able to learn this with a minimal amount of class time each week on it.
I am going with at least six months time in rank. I dont feel that someones belt should still look like it did when they first got it before they test for the next rank.


Alnwicktkd:
Thats something I forgot to address. I really am not interested in jumping from 2nd Dan BB ( I will test in a few months for it) to 10th Degree Grand Master. However, we need someone of a higher rank and more than 5 years of TKD XP to be the head of our style. Maybe not.
If we just named someone GM of our style then we would be starting our new style off with Bullshido of the highest order.
That being said...."Welcome to the fold oh great Soke/Sifu Grand Master Alan."

Tinkebell:
I at first said no head gear. On second thought I feel that anyone under the rank of BB should have to wear boxing style headgear.
The sparring should be heavy contact. I also feel that a Gi is to be worn along with the belt during class. Century makes a shin/foot guard pad that can be worn under the Gi pants.

http://i16.tinypic.com/4tuvsas.jpg

Trim belts back to the original 5 colors

Have a competition/mandatory sparring requirement for rank

The TKDers use the head gear for heavy sparring in our club. Those that use the kickboxing to further their training generally do not. At our most advanced levels it's just a mouth guard and a box, though we still glove up and use thai style shin pads for most training because we allow kicks bellow the waist.

Hey, how about we just teach TKD as it's fucking supposed to be taught.

I agree.....why does a new style have to be created? Just teach how it is supposed to be taught.

Though I do have to nit-pick 2c).

Before I decided to go onto a different career path, I was on my way to the police academy. Duration of the academy? About 15 weeks. 15 WEEKS and I would eligible for hire and given all the powers of a law enforcement officer and the **** that comes with it when dealing with criminals.

My friend, who went up the ranks of TKD with me, went into the army. The amount of time it took him to go through boot camp was a hell of a lot shorter than the 2 years it took him to earn a black belt. And he was the "ready" to head into a war zone and die for our country.


I think that instead of focusing on time requirements, a school should focus on the level of training and the ability of their students. Seems silly to deny promotion to someone because they haven't attended "X" number of classes or has been with you for at least 5 years.

Hey, how about we just teach TKD as it's fucking supposed to be taught.

I think that Oldman34 has come to the conclusion that TKD in its current sinking ship state is not salvageable. Not saying that teaching TKD correctly isn't important. Just disguising it to get a better following.

Create a new system to start over, trying to keep the ship afloat.

I think that Oldman34 has come to the conclusion that TKD in its current sinking ship state is not salvageable. Not saying that teaching TKD correctly isn't important. Just disguising it to get a better following.

Create a new system to start over, trying to keep the ship afloat.


This is exactly the conclusion I have come to.



Hey, how about we just teach TKD as it's fucking supposed to be taught.

If you say, I teach TKD like its supposed to be taught, then fine, but some people will say, "So you gave t3h r34l TKD"

Others, confused by the TMA bashers will generalize TKD and say, "I dont want to take a MA that doesnt let me punch to the head."

So we start a new style that teaches TKD as it was intended. You give it a name [something] TKD. That way people can differetiate between plain ass soccer mom TKD and our style.

The new style will be KNOWN for teaching TKD correctly.


My friend, who went up the ranks of TKD with me, went into the army. The amount of time it took him to go through boot camp was a hell of a lot shorter than the 2 years it took him to earn a black belt. And he was the "ready" to head into a war zone and die for our country.

First off, dont you think 2 years is kind of short to be able to call yourself a BB? Thats whats wrong with TKD today.

Secondly, you cant compare Military Boot Camp with a MA school. You dont have the students 24/7, you cant run them like a drill instructor, and even if you did they still wouldnt be proficient in the art.
Even after twelve weeks at Paris Island, Marines still have to go through AIT School. So your analogy fails here.



I think that instead of focusing on time requirements, a school should focus on the level of training and the ability of their students. Seems silly to deny promotion to someone because they haven't attended "X" number of classes or has been with you for at least 5 years.

Focusing on the training is precisely what we are doing. Thats why time is required for advancement. Quality control of training. No 2 year BB's.

Of course the number of classes will decide wether you are ready to test for the next belt level. That way you dont get your blue belt, wait six months and have barely come to class and then test for your brown belt. This leads to shitty practitioners.

No one is gauranteed a BB in 5 years either. You MUST meet the requirements of a BB in order to test for it.

It seems silly to me to give someone a BB in 24 months of training. BJ Penn is called "The Phenom". Why? Because it took him 4 years to earn a BB in BJJ. A feat that usually take 8 to 10 years. Notice how BJJ doesnt seem to have the shitty soccer mom BB's walking around.


Trim belts back to the original 5 colors

Have a competition/mandatory sparring requirement for rank

I dont think TKD ever had just 5 belt colors. I dont know , so if someone (Errant, Matt W.) could help here.
Believe it or not, there are some people who like the positive reinforcement of testing for a belt. It gives them a goal to strive for.
Even my BJJ school gives out stripes on the belts. Not much difference between a stripe or a belt is there?

As to the sparring requirement...great idea.

Can you give a little more detail as to your idea?
Are you saying that they have to win or place in so many compettions before they can advance?

Oldman34, Good luck to you sir. As far as belts I'm of the camp that belts shouldn't be used as positive psychological reinforcement but as a standard bearer of the wearers skill. Stripes would do just fine for positive reinforcement.

I dont think TKD ever had just 5 belt colors. I dont know , so if someone (Errant, Matt W.) could help here.
In South Korea it's only 5 coloured belts.


I'll go a step further backwards. Let's say you want to create your own MA. How would you go about it?

What I would do is to only teach SD the first 2 years, because I know that 71 % of alle who apply for membership in my gym wants SD because I have at short questionnaire on my membership application form they have to answer.

After two years of SD the students should be allowed to specialize becaus people are different. Maybe some want to specialize even further in SD, some want to compete ind tournaments and others just want some cardio training because they got from the 2 years of SD training what they wanted. There may be even further types of specialization.

I can apply this to oldman's new TKD style:

First 2 years no patterns (the way patterns are taught and trained today = Tae Bo). Teach them how to use kicks and punches etc.
After two years there are the specializations: Avanced SD, competition and cardio etc.
Keep the competition kick-oriented to keep the TKD-flavour. For the cardio make patterns that are full of kicks.

And BTW keep the plain white dobok and only one patch!

If you say, I teach TKD like its supposed to be taught, then fine, but some people will say, "So you gave t3h r34l TKD"

Others, confused by the TMA bashers will generalize TKD and say, "I dont want to take a MA that doesnt let me punch to the head."

So we start a new style that teaches TKD as it was intended. You give it a name [something] TKD. That way people can differetiate between plain ass soccer mom TKD and our style.

The new style will be KNOWN for teaching TKD correctly.
So you want to go from "the people" saying "Oh, it's sucky TKD." to "Oh, it's another new made up Korean martial art." How many flavors of the same Korean art do we have these days anyway?

Let me quote the philosopher Durden.
"A generation of men raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman is the answer we really need." Just replace "women" with "TKD".

Let me quote the philosopher Durden.
"A generation of men raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman is the answer we really need." Just replace "women" with "TKD".

See? Even he didn't know.

In all reality, I don't know how well a new style would fare, or if it could possibly do better. Everyone has their solution, and everyone wants to redesign the wheel to fit THEIR needs, but when all is said and done, what good comes out of it?

How often do you see one oppressive government get thrown over just for a new regime to take its place and start abusing its power?

It's easy to SAY you'll run a small country fairly. It's another thing to do it.