I have no problem at all with people who just want to do acrobatic forms for the exercise, if that's all they claim to be doing.
Yep, we've (us kung fuers) have said this a million times.

I respect what modern wushu has done to preserve the forms for later generations. Yes, there are (especially in china) schools that actually do the original sets. Then you have the XMA made up stuff. Which IMO is no different than a gymnastics routine. The big difference, a gymnast isn't going to run around talking about using gymnastics to whip some ass.

There are articles all over the net of modern (competition) wushu's effectiveness in a fight. That is where my problems start.

Well, what exactly do you want?

I could just post instructionals from john wang, going from single form to judo applications. Sparring ends up not looking so different from poor man version of judo randori.
.


You talking about J Wang from this thread right?


http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51001

The guys a fucking fool!

Okay, i lost my post several times over some bug.

Elmacho, the second clip was called sparring by the people in the vid. So since i didnt see that much difference between clip 1 and clip 2, i assume they think its sparring.

john wang, the same as liokaults j wang, is a shuai jiao instructor. And personnally, i think that shuai jiao looks poorer than judo, hence why i refered it to poor man judo.

liokault, he is a fool in that aspect, but his instructionals of formwork->throwing application are semi interesting for the people that are still stuck on formwork-> striking, hence sparring== bad kickboxing.

liokault, he is a fool in that aspect, but his instructionals of formwork->throwing application are semi interesting for the people that are still stuck on formwork-> striking, hence sparring== bad kickboxing.Clear this up. I'm getting 2 different points.

I've drawn a complete blank looking for clips of Hung Gar sparring recognisably as Hung Gar/Hung Kuen though. This surprises me. It's one of the most popular southern chinese, 'hard' styles there is, with a reputation for tough conditioning etc..

Can anybody help us out here ?

Here's some video from a Hung Gar tournament: http://www.tianwudao.com/forums/downloads/Hung%20Gar%202006.mov. Warning: it's a big file (240M).

I believe it's from the tournament mentioned here: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35668

As for it being recognizably Hung Gar, I'll leave that to more knowledgeable people.
Multiple styles are represented. I assume some of the fighters are using Hung Gar, but I can't say for sure as I don't really know what HG looks like.

I posted this in Strikestan a while back but I thought I should still represent for my style in what little capacity I can.

edit: apparently those videos are gone, but these are there now

From: http://www.tanglangmen.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GMXlPFk1Nc&eurl=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5S7ApSr4Eo&eurl=

I posted this in Strikestan a while back but I thought I should still represent for my style in what little capacity I can.

edit: apparently those videos are gone, but these are there now

From: http://www.tanglangmen.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GMXlPFk1Nc&eurl=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5S7ApSr4Eo&eurl=

The hand-speed on these guys is definitely impressive, but at times this looks a bit like slap-fighting. Makes me curious as to how hard those punches actually connect...

Not shitting on the videos, just wondering.

The hand-speed on these guys is definitely impressive, but at times this looks a bit like slap-fighting. Makes me curious as to how hard those punches actually connect...
Not shitting on the videos, just wondering.
Without yet watching the videos, I can tell you this:
you won't find the answer on any web forum.
Gotta try... :icon_thum

here is some Tang Lang Sanda i think from the same group as the last few vids....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HRhqyAxJN8

I've drawn a complete blank looking for clips of Hung Gar sparring recognisably as Hung Gar/Hung Kuen though. This surprises me. It's one of the most popular southern chinese, 'hard' styles there is, with a reputation for tough conditioning etc..

Can anybody help us out here ?

Every Hung Gar school I've seen doesn't encourage people to use the movements in the forms while sparring until they get further along. So for a large portion of the students, you've got these two almost completely unrelated sets of movements associated with the art. My friends in Austin that do Hung Gar tend to do it in 6 week units, with 6 weeks of working some form and the applications thereof, and then 6 weeks of sparring and sparring material, although the advanced students get together every weekend and spar anyway. Yes, I think this is highly inefficient.

Back in the white dragon thread:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56068

There are links to sparring vids for their combo of White Eyebrow, Dragon and Mongolian wrestling.

Every Hung Gar school I've seen doesn't encourage people to use the movements in the forms while sparring until they get further along. So for a large portion of the students, you've got these two almost completely unrelated sets of movements associated with the art. My friends in Austin that do Hung Gar tend to do it in 6 week units, with 6 weeks of working some form and the applications thereof, and then 6 weeks of sparring and sparring material, although the advanced students get together every weekend and spar anyway. Yes, I think this is highly inefficient.

It is inefficient. The way you describe the situation of having two different sets of movements is a telltale sign of a teacher who learned a bunch of forms, and some really lame "day one" applications. Unfortunately, Hung Gar is one of the most common styles in the US, due mainly to video sales (**** You Wing Lam), Over rated and underskilled "Masters" (Long List of names), and all but a handful of the sifu having any real fight experience. The famous families of lineage holders produce NO fighters whatsoever, in any recognized venue. They have let thier sacred art go out to pasture.
This is the fact kids: A lot of kung fu is taught by well meaning, but completely clueless people who have no experience fighting, and have learned from those who have no experience fighting. I'm not talking about fighting psuedo-kickboxing/sanshou/sanda, I'm talking any fighting experience beyond some wussy point **** in thier previous art. I pisses me off, I wish it could be rectified, but its really out of the hands of the few small groups who do train hard and do have a clue. There's no governing body for this ****, there's no "policing from within" anymore, and the situation serves only to marginalize if not outright make a mockery of CMA.

Anyway, back on topic: no video, it didn't happen right? Let me pose this question, if there was video, would it change anyone's mind? I seriously doubt it, because at this point it would be little more than a fluke in the general public's opinion of what kung fu is and what its all about.

Here's some examples of CMA for your viewing pleasure. Don't confuse any of these people for the pajama and fluff crowd. As a side note, I'm quite sure some of these people cross train into other things, but CMA is at their base:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuP6cApKAD8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nrKwmucaF0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk68WsIoAGg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_xAf_P8Bt4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCU2vRZBlJE
Some Choy Li Fut people sparring.

I know these guys. They train with Desmond Jackson, a CLF player in Gainesville, Florida. Des trains old school kung fu, including no-gear sparring at various contact levels. He still holds an open sparring night every Friday that was the area's Throwdown avant-la-lettre.

Sam, the one in the black shirt, is in his late teens. Nice kid. I rolled with him the last time I went through town.

It is inefficient. The way you describe the situation of having two different sets of movements is a telltale sign of a teacher who learned a bunch of forms, and some really lame "day one" applications. Unfortunately, Hung Gar is one of the most common styles in the US, due mainly to video sales (**** You Wing Lam), Over rated and underskilled "Masters" (Long List of names), and all but a handful of the sifu having any real fight experience. The famous families of lineage holders produce NO fighters whatsoever, in any recognized venue. They have let thier sacred art go out to pasture.
This is the fact kids: A lot of kung fu is taught by well meaning, but completely clueless people who have no experience fighting, and have learned from those who have no experience fighting. I'm not talking about fighting psuedo-kickboxing/sanshou/sanda, I'm talking any fighting experience beyond some wussy point **** in thier previous art. I pisses me off, I wish it could be rectified, but its really out of the hands of the few small groups who do train hard and do have a clue. There's no governing body for this ****, there's no "policing from within" anymore, and the situation serves only to marginalize if not outright make a mockery of CMA.

Anyway, back on topic: no video, it didn't happen right? Let me pose this question, if there was video, would it change anyone's mind? I seriously doubt it, because at this point it would be little more than a fluke in the general public's opinion of what kung fu is and what its all about.

I basically agree with everything you just said, but I'm a bit more optimistic.



Here's some examples of CMA for your viewing pleasure. Don't confuse any of these people for the pajama and fluff crowd. As a side note, I'm quite sure some of these people cross train into other things, but CMA is at their base:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuP6cApKAD8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nrKwmucaF0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk68WsIoAGg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_xAf_P8Bt4

Nice clips. Wim Demeere has trained in the same style of Tai Chi as me (to a much higher level I should add). I think he's studied Muay Thai and other things too.

This time it's noted CMC Yang teacher -- and former full contact fighter -- William CC Chen's son, Max Chen, fighting a couple of guys under Muay Thai rules in NYC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSofjhIVvB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJh2V1nTBB4

Max, who also has a good san shou record, wins both fights.

For all the weaknesses and limitations Kyokushin Karate has.Or for that matter a lot of TKD and their tournaments style of fighting. Why is it so hard to find full-contact tournaments coming out of China.You can't always use the "blame the Old masters who disapproved of inter-school tournaments because they didn't want to let out the "sicrits"". Come on? That only works if this was 1993.

Oh!BTW! There better not be a single “well the communist in china stopped all forms of fighting during the revolution”.Because that doesn’t fly anymore. The communist leaders have been pretty easy going with all forms of style tournaments in the last 10, 15 years.

Heck!In the USSR they were just as tough.Minus ,perhaps the out-right killings that may have occured.They out-lawed MA training sometimes for years and only allowed national recognised Sambo and Boxing.Not to mention that Kung-fu was unhindered in places such as Hong-kong ,Macau, Malaysia,US,Etc..

You also have no right to post "well there is Sandan". **** you. If you don't do Sandan that's a cop-out .I am of course reffering to Shuai Jiao, Choy Lay/Li Fut , Hsing Yi, Hung Gar, San Soo, Shaolin, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Xingyi,Bagua, Baji, and more.

Great examples of course would be the tournament film I saw a while ago of Tai-Chi that looked remarkably like Judo.

(I would prefer if more members under the 500 post and anyone who may be lurking this site to contrinute. Anyone above that I may already understand your stand already.You shouldn't have to feel compelled to. If you have any links showing sparring or tournaments directly from China that may not have been watched before .Please post then here).