gosh this seems to be a subject that upsets people I do apologise for my bad spelling thats just me I suppose . I certainly no expert on the subject but if you consider things like the relationship between takamatsu and kano jigoro who asked takamatsu to look after look after his little brother for him would a giant of martial arts like him associate with a walter mitty type as seems to be the thread here It brings both masters into disrepute. other students of takamatsu who will of learnt togakure ryu are akimoto fumio{kodokan judo}mifune kyuzo{10th dan kodokan judo}ueno takashi{grand master of asayama ichiden ryu taijutsu bokuden ryu jujutsu}these were all very big names and easy to research allso sato kimbei who was ura soke of tokagure was a personal student of ueshiba morihei god what a bunch of larpers .anyway appolgies for my poor grammer and remember manners are the backbone of martial arts

gosh this seems to be a subject that upsets people I do apologise for my bad spelling thats just me I suppose . I certainly no expert on the subject but if you consider things like the relationship between takamatsu and kano jigoro who asked takamatsu to look after look after his little brother for him would a giant of martial arts like him associate with a walter mitty type as seems to be the thread here It brings both masters into disrepute. other students of takamatsu who will of learnt togakure ryu are akimoto fumio{kodokan judo}mifune kyuzo{10th dan kodokan judo}ueno takashi{grand master of asayama ichiden ryu taijutsu bokuden ryu jujutsu}these were all very big names and easy to research allso sato kimbei who was ura soke of tokagure was a personal student of ueshiba morihei god what a bunch of larpers .anyway appolgies for my poor grammer and remember manners are the backbone of martial arts

Where is your proof that Mifune Kyuzo EVER trained with Takamatsu?

let alone the others.

I'm with Blue Negation on this. Ante up the proof, and please understand that "Sensei sez..." is not a viable response on Bullshido.

You may want to review this stickied thread:
How to Discuss Koga Ryu/ninjutsu Lineage Claims - No BS MMA and Martial Arts (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=96931)
While it originally addressed lineage claims, there is so much mythology surrounding any ninjutsu claim, it really serves as a guide to discussing any claims about ninjutsu history. Be prepared to cite sources or name names.

I think you will find that some of us will agree to certain statements of yours regarding Takamatsu's association with Ueno Takashi, Akimoto Fumio and Sato Kinbei. I have heard and read anecdotes about Takamatsu being invited to teach at the Kodokan, but as far as I know, there is no corroborating proof of this.

Jigoro Kano knew a lot of martial artists in his day. He was a huge deal in the Japanese (and world) martial arts scene at the time, so if Takamatsu was big into budo I would have no problems accepting that he at least knew the man (maybe Takamatsu even got to call him his street name of 'Jiggy'). That doesn't mean that Kano was Takamatsu's best buddy or that he went out of his way to send students to him (need more proof especially on Mifune plz).

gosh this seems to be a subject that upsets people I do apologise for my bad spelling thats just me I suppose . I certainly no expert on the subject but if you consider things like the relationship between takamatsu and kano jigoro who asked takamatsu to look after look after his little brother for him would a giant of martial arts like him associate with a walter mitty type as seems to be the thread here It brings both masters into disrepute. other students of takamatsu who will of learnt togakure ryu are akimoto fumio{kodokan judo}mifune kyuzo{10th dan kodokan judo}ueno takashi{grand master of asayama ichiden ryu taijutsu bokuden ryu jujutsu}these were all very big names and easy to research allso sato kimbei who was ura soke of tokagure was a personal student of ueshiba morihei god what a bunch of larpers .anyway appolgies for my poor grammer and remember manners are the backbone of martial arts

Fumio Akimoto was ura soke of togakure Ryu Sato Kinbei sensei never trained in Togakure Ryu he studied (hon tai) takagi yoshin ryu, kukishin Ryu and Gikan Ryu, (his website www.jujutsu.com (http://www.jujutsu.com)), also on that site you notice no mention of Aikido or ueshiba, funny that, Ueno takashi sensei didnt learn togakure ryu either.
Though the original letter seems to be written when the whole bujinkan ryu-ha came under the banner of togakure ryu. He points out that not all the ryu-ha are ninjutsu, hes right I dont think anyone thinks all nine ryu ha are, Not to mention a couple of areas that have since been proven or proven wrong, ie. No record of Toda, apparently Toda's grave has been found, so in itself proves Toda existed (though it proves nothing else) also the whole ninja games has been proven as a mistranslation. Once again everything I have written is not first hand, just as nothing for the other side of the table is first hand either, in fact the article is far more based on what he thinks may have happened without references to fact. so Either way until actual proof for either side is presented both rely on faith of the person believing the story. just my 2 cents

No record of Toda, apparently Toda's grave has been found, so in itself proves Toda existed (though it proves nothing else) also the whole ninja games has been proven as a mistranslation.

I have heard that Toda's grave was found, but I have not been able to verify this. For example, I have seen no pictures of it. I fear it may be a self-perpetuating rumor on the Internet. Can you provide any source for this?


so Either way until actual proof for either side is presented both rely on faith of the person believing the story. just my 2 cents

Not exactly true. It's not an either or proposition.

Believing something exists without proof requires faith.

Denying something is true when objective proof exists is to be wrong.

Claiming something has not been proven to be true, while the believers are unable to offer objective proof is a statement of current fact, not faith. I will be happy to revise any claims if objective proof is offered. If no verifiable proof of a claim is offered -- especially after repeated efforts and over a significant period of time -- it is not unreasonable to doubt the claim ever had validity. For example, it is not unreasonable to believe the Loch Ness Monster does not exist.

Please, what is "Jissen Kobudo?"

I have heard that Toda's grave was found, but I have not been able to verify this. For example, I have seen no pictures of it. I fear it may be a self-perpetuating rumor on the Internet. Can you provide any source for this?

You may already know, but there was a thread about that exact topic back in 2007.

Ninjers claim to have proof Takamatsu's teacher existed! - No BS MMA and Martial Arts (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62265)

You may already know, but there was a thread about that exact topic back in 2007.

Ninjers claim to have proof Takamatsu's teacher existed! - No BS MMA and Martial Arts (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62265)

And it appears that nothing was resolved in that thread either. *sigh*