But lets face it if you are a woman on the streets and you are alone and it comes down to rape or survival are you going to put yourself on your back and try to fight them off? Or would you rather redirect and finger to the back of the skull and run.

I'm sorry guys for the semi-serious reply. I know you've come to expect comedy gold from me, and with Boyd recently blown away by hurricane shitstorm, I may be your only, poor substitute.

However, this deserves as much seriousness as I can muster. BJJ is one of the best systems for defending rape because you actually fight your way out of inferior ground positions, where most rapes virtually start.

Or perhaps you might look at the sporting, MMA biased technique known as an "armbar". Y'know, the one where you have a man between your legs and you break his arm at the elbow joint.

BJJ gives real, functional answers developed through real sparring where you know when you got your ass choked out.

Now it's your turn, oh Street-Lethal Mcgillicuddy: Exactly what solutions does WC offer to a woman who's been pinned to her bed with a big veiny dick waving in her face (WELCOME TO MY LIFE, GUYS), and a human bag of turds above her, telling her to suck it like it's got pure ambrosia of the gods inside? "Finger to the back of the skull"? That might just cause him to nut.

We now return to our normally scheduled mockery, already in progress.

Really the point was to not go to the ground...but yes if you go to the ground then BJJ will help very much so. Remember I trained JJ for some time. But first of all lets say you are a woman in a vacant lot or maybe there are more than one attackers...then what? If you are pinned yes do what you got to, but wouldn't you rather to not get pinned! But most women I know would not rather start off the fight with the big veiny dick in there face, you may want to question the woman you hang around with...they maybe be studying cockshido ( the art of fendind off dick already inserted in the mouth).

Seriously. Seeeeeeriously. This has all been said. Read through the rest of the thread, and then search for the other 50 wing chun threads. This has been discussed from every angle regarding every scenario. The entire history, technique list and application of wing chun is spread thickly across Bullshido.com - we don't need another layer of it.

Here is the part you are not getting, I am replying to the orignal thread, critical or not I am answering a posted question. I am not trying to prove to the forum nor you anything about wing chun. I could really careless what you think about the system. You are as guilty as anyone else who continues to spew the same garabage. WC covers many aspects of fighting the only one not grappling, I would say that is 3 out of four is good (kicking, punching, trapping and grappling for someone who lacks any kind of real applicable fighting knowledge).

I think you are right about one thing...this is a picky forum and there are many people here who make valid view points but you are not one of them. So go ahead score and grade everyone because you lack the ability to impress me with what you know. You attack people for what they say, I have never even directed a comment about you, your discpline, your beliefs....as for the eye gouge try it...before you knock it, you don't think it works do it to someone even for practice...I know you never have because of your movie references and how you judge it....how about this less typing and more training....I will respond back to you when you have something knowledgable and insightful to say!

Look genius, I am not, nor have I ever, attacked WC. As I specifically mentioned, I have not decided whether I believe WC is valid or not. You have not put forth one valid point that has NOT already been made in the last 2 1/2 YEARS, as everyone else in this thread keeps telling you... it's been said before. I am attacking your ability to argue. Again, you choose to come back with only speculation and ad hominem attacks, so obviously your logic is flawed. I will put this to you in simpler terms:

- I attack what you SAY. That is an argument.
- You attack ME as a person. That is a logical fallacy, called "ad hominem". http://datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm

You can't even be consistent within the same post:

You fail as a martial artis because of your vague knowledge and opinionated views about a style that has contributed much to the martial arts community....Its like you trained one art once a month or something, have you been taking online classes because you are an idiot.

I have never even directed a comment about you, your discpline, your beliefs.

One more thing: If you are "not trying to prove to the forum nor you anything about wing chun", then why answer the question in the first place? :icon_roll

Just giving insight to a person who asked a question about wing chun from a person who studies this art, among others.


Grade away!

I have a serious question, is there another way to prove the applicabilty of a fighting art other then modern day competitions or video footage?

By this I mean could there be proof in the history of the people who created it?

The only reason I say this is because there are other fighting arts out there like Filipino art forms or Indonesian art forms. Filipinos fought off many countries by hand and stick and are famed for their knife fighting yet they have no roots in MMA competitions. THey have never had a serious contender in the UFC nor do I think their schools really care too (generalization). But does this make them inferior?

The only reason I say this is because there are other fighting arts out there like Filipino art forms or Indonesian art forms. Filipinos fought off many countries by hand and stick.....


Gee, weren't they dominated by Spaniards like forever?

Tomas

Gee, weren't they dominated by Spaniards like forever?

Tomas


Actually yes, they were and they were not allowed to practice fighting forms nor use edged weapons, but under those circumstances a necessity for a functional fighting skills would seem more likely to develope. While we are fighting one on one in cages and developing MMA skills, there art form most likely developed under more pressing matters.

But do you think that they lack credibility or present and inferior fighting style because they do not hold a major championsship with in a NHB scenario or have numerous video footage?

Gee, weren't they dominated by Spaniards like forever?

Tomas

the spanish had guns, the filipinos had sticks and swords. i believe that thier claim to fame is that they killed ferdinand magellan with sticks and swords.
you cant ignore the FMAs quality of fighting. They do not show face in regular UFC or MMA fights. how ever, ppl like the DOG brothers do have full contact stick fights as competition. those arts remain true to their ideals and have yet to sell out as much as say wing chun has. but then again, look back to the history of all martial arts. they were all at one time effective for survival. i believe that modern society responsible for our beloved BULLSHIDO. most styles have sold out in one way or another, watered down their methods! BJJ would be even more effective if they trained to break the arm rather than for a tap. WC would be more effective if they actually hit people for real. karate TKD, TSD, if they didnt train for point sparring.

i would say that boxing is the only sport i can think of that has not lost its original purpose. but boxers would get hurt to a skilled grappler, or any one that isolated low line kicks etc.

the problem continues, are sport martial arts real martial arts????????????
and have "real martial arts" fallen victim to excessive watering down, and bullshidoism.

Actually yes, they were and they were not allowed to practice fighting forms nor use edged weapons, but under those circumstances a necessity for a functional fighting skills would seem more likely to develope. While we are fighting one on one in cages and developing MMA skills, there art form most likely developed under more pressing matters.

But do you think that they lack credibility or present and inferior fighting style because they do not hold a major championsship with in a NHB scenario or have numerous video footage?
Two words.Dog Brothers.

Actually yes, they were and they were not allowed to practice fighting forms nor use edged weapons, but under those circumstances a necessity for a functional fighting skills would seem more likely to develope. While we are fighting one on one in cages and developing MMA skills, there art form most likely developed under more pressing matters.

But do you think that they lack credibility or present and inferior fighting style because they do not hold a major championsship with in a NHB scenario or have numerous video footage?

Not at all.
I'm just disputing the argument that their stickfighting was somehow effective in war. That's all.

But still, the best FMA I've seen is Dog Brothers, and those are IMR mostly westerners aren't they?

Tomas

the spanish had guns, the filipinos had sticks and swords. i believe that thier claim to fame is that they killed ferdinand magellan with sticks and swords.
you cant ignore the FMAs quality of fighting.


I don't.



They do not show face in regular UFC or MMA fights. how ever, ppl like the DOG brothers do have full contact stick fights as competition. those arts remain true to their ideals and have yet to sell out as much as say wing chun has. but then again, look back to the history of all martial arts. they were all at one time effective for survival.


See? I would argue with this. Blade arts and archery aside, I don't see how karate/tkd/kung fu/etc was necessary for survival. Unless you are talking time before blades were invented, like before Bronze age, but I'm afraid the only MA that reaches that far is neanderthal grappling (which I imagine would look very much like todays MMA).



i believe that modern society responsible for our beloved BULLSHIDO. most styles have sold out in one way or another, watered down their methods! BJJ would be even more effective if they trained to break the arm rather than for a tap.


Ever heard of "tap or snap"? Tap means the arm is 1/2 inch away from being broken. By taping you are admitting that if you didn't tap your arm would be broken. Taping is the greatest invention in martial arts.

Tomas

I started a new thread with this question because I don't want this to be plagued with wing chun nay sayers (this is not abot WC), it is a question that I was interested in when reading through many of the other threads on bullshido of people defending the system that they train.

Really the point was to not go to the ground...

The point is to run the **** away, and not dick around with playing what amounts to arm fencing with your attacker.


but yes if you go to the ground then BJJ will help very much so. Remember I trained JJ for some time.

I used to be an expensive male prostitute under the name "Siguerlo", which is about as relevant to BJJ as your JJ experience.



But first of all lets say you are a woman in a vacant lot or maybe there are more than one attackers...then what? If you are pinned yes do what you got to, but wouldn't you rather to not get pinned! .

...Yes. You're right. BJJ consists mainly of grabbing onto your opponent's lapels and doing a baseball slide until you end up underneath side control.

Let me ask you something, because i'm genuinely curious: You are aware that "pinned" and "not pinned" do not even begin to address the totality of positioning on the ground, right?

Also, what exactly is a "finger to the back of the neck"? Serious, I can't think of any martial arts technique that fits that description...I can't even make a lame sexual anology because...well, it's just so outlandish.

From the original post I have yet to see WCKF offer anything outstanding, some of it looks ok but I have never meet a WCKF person who has made me a believer, a few handy principals but that is it from my view.

I've recently conducted a survey of Wing Chun styles as far as is possible to do from whats available on the net. I haven't seen much thats impressive at all. Most of the time Wing Chun people talk about things like centre-line theory but don't practice its application in fighting. Possibly the most obvious failure of the system are those Sifus out there that teach the legs spread-triangle stance... where the fighter is standing with legs splayed open, knees straight, and feet pointing straight forward. Niether leg is forward, as most styles of fighting from kickboxing to fencing would suggest is a good idea. They then like to lean back for some reason. These things are justified on the basis of some very dodgy ideas concerning close-range fighting.

Of course there is a side-on stance in Wing Chun (from the Chum Kil form) but very few Wing Chun people focus on this. Rather they focus on chi-sau and drills from chi sau. This is done staticly, without movement, except for perhaps a kick in some of the most showy drills.

Now I'm sure most of you are aware that a good counter against most hand-flashy stuff is to keep your 'dukes up'. Against most of the stuff I've seen the WC techniques can be countered simply by keeping your hands up and in front. In fact a very good counter to someone who decides to do 'rolling punches' at you is simply to punch hard and fast yourself. Another is just to block along the line of the rolling punches.

Having said that I'm not paying out Wing Chun at all. Very few arts can beat a good 'dukes-up' with punching defence.

My advice concerning Wing Chun (and most MA) is:
1. you should try and be involved in sparring as much as possible. This might require you to improve your cardio-vascular health. Take up running or something lighter but try and make it so you can last through a good sparring session.
2. sparring shouldn't be point based... rather get a few people you trust and try and have an anything goes but dont injure philosophy. It should be like a controlled brawl but fight using Wing Chun! If you can do this you'll at least have a good benchmark for figuring out what works for you (at this stage in training) and what might work in the future. Bear in mind you might get blood-noses, fat lips, black eyes, hyper extended limbs, bruises on your arms, guts and legs and so on a lot. But this is unfortunately the only way to learn to fight, and it will knock any flinch reflex you have out of you.
3. Do weight-training for strength. This is different than mass-training (which is actually less time consuming and a little easier). The benefits are enormous and it will improve everything from punching power to coordination.
4. Wing Chun is close range fighting... remember that when training and sparring. I consider it to be close to a form of upright-wrestling and boxing. Unfortunately most styles focus on flashy-rapid arm-strikes. If your club focuses mainly on drills where someone does X and then you do A-to-Z... and this is all the training you do, don't be upset when someone with a more focused fighting background takes you to the cleaners.