Before William Cheung was beaten up by Emin, he was really considered to be the toughest man in the Wing Chun clan. Wong Shun Leung was once beaten up so badly by Cheung in a chi-sau match and it was film in 8-mm. In speaking of Wong, although he was considered to be a great fighter, mostly due to the fame of Bruce Lee, he was nothing but a piece of crap! People in the western martial arts world often cheated by his students by boasting how great Wong was in those "talk-hand" matches. The truth is, Wong had only fought in one open Kung Fu tournament in 1957 in Taiwan, and was knocked out in the 1st round! He couldn't even walked out of the ring and needed to be carried out by a stretcher. After that, he was named "Stretcher Wong" by the Hong Kong Kung Fu community.

hahaha
You are from Wa Shan!

You guys are really obsessed with this lineage / different branches (WT/WC/VT)/ german incident thing, aren't you?

Here we should speak of the art (remember the first question was "what do you think about WC). You have had the inputs from people doing it, if you don't believe why don't you just try it and make your opinion on the art?

Little Idea,

>If you consider standing right in front of you
>with a piece of paper you published and telling
>you I want to kick your ass a sudden sneak attack

All is fair in love and war but not in boxing matches. When you challenge someone to a fair fight to prove that you are a better fighter than them, then you have set it up so neither of you has an unfair advantage. Its a fair fight or it proves nothing.

>What the ****? You talk like you were there.
>Speeches? I thought he was teaching a class?

When I have gone to classes in college, there is usually a guy in front speaking or lecturing. Cheung was demonstrating as a guest in a basketball gym. Anyway, I'll admit that he should have been ready. Who would go to demonstrate martial arts and not be prepared to fight .. whatever. Fine, he was being a lazy ass.

>Speeches are for academics and politicians. He
>challenged 'anyone, anytime', but god forbid don't >interupt a fucking speech.

He challenged them to a duel or a fair fight. I am sure he didn't say that anyone could come over and pounce on him in his sleep and slit his throat for raisinet money.

>I hope to hell you never meet up with DJ's guy
>that is out looking for raisinet money, cause
>that would just be uncalled for and disrespectful.

All is fair in love and war but not in boxing matches or formal duels. When you challenge someone to a fair fight to prove that you are a better fighter than them then you have set it up so neither of you has an unfair advantage ~ or it proves nothing.

>What the ****? You talk like you were there.
>Speeches? I thought he was teaching a class?

You really should read Will's version of the story. Its right here on McDojo.com. You can find it here:

http://www.mcdojo.com/article_read.asp?id=52

Here is a quote:

* When I started the second sort of technique drill, he came over again, and I noticed there's about 10-15 people walking behind and around him. And as soon as he came up, they went and formed a circle around us. And he said, "I want to fight you now." And I said, "Well, that's different. You said you wanted to spar and now you want to fight." I said, "Let's do it after class." And he began mumbling something, and I said, "Look, you know, I granted you the fight after the class. And strictly speaking, you're not even in my seniority." So I walked away, but I knew he more or less was going to try something. So after I walked away, the third step he rushed in and threw a round punch with his right arm."


.. sounds like a sucker punch to me.

Honestly, I don't care enough about this to download the video of the fight again but .. if I am right it starts as the fight has already begun. I wonder why they don't show the beggining of the fight.

I am not saying Will is the king of fighters, I am just saying that wonder boy Emin didn't prove a thing in that fight. I really don't give a crap about either one of them myself.


>> Perhaps it was because I had an inherent skill for the science and never deviated from natural principles. - Miyamoto Musashi 1643

The following site contains clips demonstrated by Yip Man's students.
http://gongsau.isportsdot.com/

Well, this is the definitve demonstration that lineage does not matter....

I trained in chuengs wing chun for about a year when i was younger.
It all seemed pretty cool and scientific.

But I have found(as with most trad martial arts) all the "science" falls apart when someone is belting you in the face.
I think most "stylized" MA's are good for a few moves at the start of the fight, then it becomes a brawl.
If you move ranges,(say into a clinch) then you can start your moves again, but it aint never like it looks in the demos.
And thats the big problem, most training is just like doing a freaking demo...block , punch , twist etc and the "bad guy" falls down.

A tough wingchun man who can throw good punches and is aggressive may be a good fighter, but i'd like to see just how much of what he is doing is "wing chun" after the first few blows.

If most wing chun people trained the way Thai or BJJ fighters do, it would be time much better spent.
And if they did, you might find that much of the "wing chuness" (a new word!) is dropped.





Edited by - jeffgord on October 03 2002 08:20:34

That's one of the best posts I've seen.

Quote:
"I think most "stylized" MA's are good for a few moves at the start of the fight, then it becomes a brawl"

That is exactly what I try to tell people, I can only see WC being good when you use a pre-emptive attack. ie. a fast eye poke straight away before the guy knows what happened. But if you missed and the guy closes the distance and starts to grapple the pure WC guy is in deep ****. The Boztepe / Cheung video demonstrates this. (sorry to use that one again but it is an interesting clip)



Edited by - SLJ on October 03 2002 04:08:30

Reference text below:
I have been in martial arts for some time, and therefore have friends who train in many different styles. One of them happens to train in Wing Chun. The Chain Punch {shudder} is certainly hard and effective. I can attest to this after being caught on the wrong side of it. Afterwards we talked (at length) about it. When done alone it can look like a series of slaps, though I have also seen it look like a jackhammer. The application my friend taught me was as a "whip". The arms are loose until the moment of impact, then the whole arm tightens starting at the shoulder and finishing in the knuckles. At this point the arm relaxes and is drawn back, just to be replaced a moment later with the other arm.

The most interesting aspect of it is that if you get caught with the first one, you will probably have to suffer through the next 4 or 5 as well. The speed at which they are deployed is like an overload of the nervous system.

My advice: Watch carefully and learn that deceptive Wing Chun body twisting so that you are not there when that first strike lands.









Hm.

But are those chain punches really hard then?
From the clips I have watched it just looks like waving to me. Distracting, sure, but knockdown...?

Disclaimer: I have never fought, seen or talked to a routined WT fighter, so what I know Is what I saw from the same clips 9chambers seems to have seen. Girl slapping. Heh.

"A good kick to the balls is almost as good as a gun, ya know"

Girl Slaps:

Look at Vitor Belfort's matches with Forrozo and Tank Abbot in the UFC. Those are chain punches. The impact from one punch wheels you around and sends your other arm in .. Emin has no motion from his forearm on back in his chain punches. He is just kicking out his forearms like some kind of grasshopper or something. These are jabs ~ and jabs are quick set-ups for powerful follow-ups. A bunch of jabs in a row is pointless. Jab him in the eyes so he can't see the cross following right behind and you have something. Keep the power coming after that.

But .. jab and just keep jabbing and he is going to just grab you and throw your ass down.

His shoulders should be diving in when he is in the mount .. the way he is doing it shows no involvement of the body and its unrealistic. It is slapping and not punching. I know Wing Chun snaps on the extension while boxing pushes on the impact but you can't use your low knees and twisting waist down on the ground .. you are on the ground.

You don't have the leverage from the WC stance when you are punching downward ~ that's why WC punches rise up. You've got to throw your weight down at him with the punch when you are in the mount. WC punches are built for standing up.


>> Perhaps it was because I had an inherent skill for the science and never deviated from natural principles. - Miyamoto Musashi 1643

I say WC instead of WT because they really are WC punches. Like it or not WT is a complete rip off of WC so I will always give the credit to WC.

Anyway, boxing punches swing .. WC punches snap. Its like the difference between Muay Thai kicks that whip and snap kicks from ..

You know what .. never mind. If someone doesn't get this by now then they can just go watch a boxing match.


>> Perhaps it was because I had an inherent skill for the science and never deviated from natural principles. - Miyamoto Musashi 1643

What do mean WT is a complete rip off of WC? Ip Man called it VT.

I get it, and I agree 100 per cent on your assessment of the power in the wing chun punches, especially as compared with boxing punches and muay thai kicks compared with...other kicks.

It's funny how you sound like Emin coulden't hurt a fly, in reality I hope everyone here knows he would knock you the **** out 9chambers.

I think wing chun, muay thai, and BJJ all have its merits. I have heard cases where Bruce Lee using wing chun to beat the crap out of boxers. I think Bruce Lee had the right concepts. You train in all of them so no one can pull quick punches at you, kick the crap out of your shins or be out grappled.

yahoo

9chambers, I have done both boxing and WT, and although the mechanichs are different, the punches from the two styles are both very powerful: I wouldn't define the WT punch similar to a "snapkick".

As a matter of fact the WT punch is coupled with the momevement of the body going ahead with the forward step and it's more penetrating that i.e. a cross (in the sense of hitting through the target), so it's basically the opposite of a "snap-punch".

As for the punches from the mount I agree with you: if you do not involve the shoulder/trunk, you will loose power, but I have yet to try (receiving) them to express judgment.