I have a problem, the other day I was grappling with one of my friends, and found that from back mount I had no clue what to do. I don't mean back mount when opponent turtles, I mean back mount when the opponent goes flat. He was defending the RNC and I think I would have had bad luck with arm bars, as well he was hiding his arms really deep. What should I have done?

BTW I was having trouble with anything from the mount as well because he was defending very rigidly and had fat, stubby arms. Tried arm triangle, tried armbar, tried front naked. Can anyone give me ideas as to what to do? I just couldn't get any extremities loose.

I guess my real question is, what are some alternatives that work very well with a rigid, motionless opponent?

Chokes. Or you can probably submit someone with a farside cradle, if you plant your head in their temple, your knee in their hip, and catch their far leg with your own. But for the most part, just choke 'em 'till they tap.

When I roll against the judoka in my club, I end up backmounted probably 90% of the time. They try to stall out all the time, so I've ended up with a lot of practice attacking from the back.

Flat *EDIT* turtling *END EDIT* is dumb. I usually get shallow double underhooks or a harness grip, then pull up to get my hooks in, or roll them to belly-up. They have no control over their movement when they're flat, so they can't roll to guard or anything. Keep rolling them when they start to stall, and keep attacking. (If you're playing gi, you can even go for a clock choke to keep them to make some space to get your hooks in.)

From backmount, I work chokes as my main attack. If it's gi, it shouldn't be a problem, just get a cross-collar grip and go for a sliding, bow, or if they're belly-down, clock choke. If it's no-gi, just keep attacking for the RNC - they're never going to give it up easily, just keep attacking.

Check out Kesting's video on finishing the RNC, it's very helpful: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6415236617134943507&q=kesting+rnc

If there's really nothing working with chokes (this is maybe 5% of the time), I threaten:
- switch to armbar
- switch to backwards triangle
- kimura grip, finish from mount (this can lead to an armbar)
- switch to mounted arm triangle

From mount, the only thing I can think of is to keep working your knees up to his armpit and threading your arms between his (making sure to not get rolled). I don't know how to describe it, but you've got to work on wiggling your arms in between his one at a time, and isolating his arm. Also, try stuff from S-mount.

Once you've got rear or regular mount and you're stabilized, you really need to amp up your aggression and keep attacking, stringing subs together.

In a gi (I am primarily a Judoka and would never be so ungentlemanly as to fight shirtless), back mount (or the flat turtle) I defeat by:

* Stand behind him, one foot on either side of his waist. Reach down to grab the belt. Pull upwards with both hands. At the same time, your feet go in, heels together, so your legs form a big diamond. Let him flop down onto your diamonded feet. Now he is no longer on the ground completely.

* Grab the gi under his armpits (where it bulges out), and roll forward and to one side. You're not doing a full roll, but you end up so that he is kind of his his side, and you're on his back with your hooks in. You're a BJJ person, do what comes naturally!

There are other things, like an armlock roll I'm not so great at, and a sankaku roll, but this one is really the easiest.

Jigoku jime, collar chokes, triangles, keep fighting for hooks and rear nakeds, arm bar, lots of leg lock options.

Is this gi or no gi? With gi, just straddle him and yank him up. Get hooks in, leg in for triangle, whatever. You could also just turn him over by grabbing his far side arm and driving with your head into his ribs.

Flat backmount is dumb.

See: Wrestling.

See: Wrestling.
Just for clarification, I meant "turtling" flat is dumb.

As for wrestling, do you mean people do it in wrestling? True, I've seen wrestlers go flat a lot, but I'm guessing it's a different strategy for a different game. Going flat in sub grappling, IMO, makes it easier to get leg locked, choked, armbarred, or backmounted. I guess there might be a time for it, but I think there's definitely a reason for turtling being more prevalent than going flat in submission grappling, at least as far as I've seen things.

Oh, I also forgot, there are a huge number of turnovers in both wrestling and judo that work to attack the turtle/belly-down flop position. My favorite non-backmount turnover is the sideways entry to the triangle/armlock combo.

BTW I was having trouble with anything from the mount as well because he was defending very rigidly and had fat, stubby arms. Tried arm triangle, tried armbar, tried front naked. Can anyone give me ideas as to what to do? I just couldn't get any extremities loose.

I guess my real question is, what are some alternatives that work very well with a rigid, motionless opponent?

Using this move may make people think you're a bitch, but then he's just locking up and not doing anything so he has no room to complain. Grab both sides of his collar with your thumbs up and your knuckles against his neck. Then, posture up by pushing off your hands and turning your thumbs towards each other and grinding your fists into him. If this doesn't get him to start squirming around, nothing will.

Alternatively, you could just sit back and let him try to escape. I find that if an opponent is always locked up tight, I loosen up a bit and give them hope. Or change position. Knee-on-stomach is really good for getting people to try to move, especially when you grab their collar and belt and then pull...:icon_twis:

http://individual.utoronto.ca/shumagorath/images/DHS_delete.png

Honestly you're waiting too long. If they are able to get flat on their back there was plenty of time for you to grab a collar. I find that i don't often just attack the neck from the back once I get there, but I do attacks that lead to finishes from the back. Work on your transitions and constantly be aware of grabbing the collar (or sinking in the choke in no-gi it really doesn't make a difference).

For mount the key is to get your knees up under their arms. Their goal to defend is to keep their elbows in and tight to the body, yours is to do the opposite. There's plenty of ways to do this, fake an x-choke, press an arm down and pin it with the knee, fake an Ezekiel, Americana/Key Lock, et cetera. It's also helpful to think that you want to stay really tight most of the time. Squeeze your knees together to keep them from bucking you (I find that squeezing your knees together is a jiu-jitsu universal constant).

It's tough to write a post that's like: do this to submit from mount. There's not blueprint (though I guess you could argue there're probably some really complicated flow charts), it depends on your skill and your opponents.

Yeah, no, I know what you mean, it's hard to say, okay do such and such technique EVERY TIME.

The reason why I couldn't front naked choke is because this guy was, well, quite chubby, and didn't have much of a neck. For that matter his chin was buried, as well. It was no gi grappling so those of you who suggested collar grips, that wasn't an option. See, this is what eddie bravo was talking about.

When I roll against the judoka in my club, I end up backmounted probably 90% of the time. They try to stall out all the time, so I've ended up with a lot of practice attacking from the back.

Flat *EDIT* turtling *END EDIT* is dumb. I usually get shallow double underhooks or a harness grip, then pull up to get my hooks in, or roll them to belly-up. They have no control over their movement when they're flat, so they can't roll to guard or anything. Keep rolling them when they start to stall, and keep attacking. (If you're playing gi, you can even go for a clock choke to keep them to make some space to get your hooks in.)

From backmount, I work chokes as my main attack. If it's gi, it shouldn't be a problem, just get a cross-collar grip and go for a sliding, bow, or if they're belly-down, clock choke. If it's no-gi, just keep attacking for the RNC - they're never going to give it up easily, just keep attacking.

Check out Kesting's video on finishing the RNC, it's very helpful: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6415236617134943507&q=kesting+rnc

If there's really nothing working with chokes (this is maybe 5% of the time), I threaten:
- switch to armbar
- switch to backwards triangle
- kimura grip, finish from mount (this can lead to an armbar)
- switch to mounted arm triangle

From mount, the only thing I can think of is to keep working your knees up to his armpit and threading your arms between his (making sure to not get rolled). I don't know how to describe it, but you've got to work on wiggling your arms in between his one at a time, and isolating his arm. Also, try stuff from S-mount.

Once you've got rear or regular mount and you're stabilized, you really need to amp up your aggression and keep attacking, stringing subs together.

Can you help me with the reverse triangle? I don't really know that one. What are some important things to know about it?

BTW your RNC vid was EXTREMELY helpful! thanks!

Can you help me with the reverse triangle? I don't really know that one. What are some important things to know about it?

No, I can't, sorry, I like the daylight and not being beaten in an isolation chamber in Gitmo. Also, the only reason I feel semi-comfortable performing this specific technique is because I've spent several classes learning and focusing on how to pull off a triangle from different positions, without rolling to guard and locking it in so it's straight on. Check out this vid (http://youtube.com/watch?v=9dw3CwkAb0k) so you know what I mean. The only thing I can really do is help you see what it looks like so you can ask your instructor. The specific choke i'm talking about looks like this:

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/ejc/sankaku.jpg


Although to be fair, you really shouldn't be worrying about this so much until you're finishing the RNC or rear collar chokes on a regular basis. Like I said, I generally finish from the back with chokes, I only use stuff like this triangle about 5% of the time. The RNC is much higher percentage, and you won't lose position if you screw it up. Once you have that basic down, then you can start learning the other stuff. For now, I'd say just think "CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE" when you get to the back, and ask your instructor for help on finishing the RNC.


BTW your RNC vid was EXTREMELY helpful! thanks!

Don't thank me, thank Stephan Kesting (http://grapplearts.com/).

Also, now you can thank Aesopian too:
http://www.aesopian.com/128/rnc-details-from-john-and-leo/
http://www.aesopian.com/47/obsessing-over-harness-grips/

It's also the move BJ Penn almost finished at the end of Round 2 of Hughes v. Penn 2, coupled with an armbar.

It's also the move BJ Penn almost finished at the end of Round 2 of Hughes v. Penn 2, coupled with an armbar.

BJ Penn is also BJ Penn. Baby steps.