WOW. I HAD N IDEA WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THIS THREAD.
I THOUGHT PEOPLE WERE ACTUALLY ARGUING ABOUT WC VS. KARATE.
I HAD NO IDEA THERE WAS SUCH A PERTY GOING ON HERE.

vapour sorry this is not true, get any books that speak about the history of the okinawa karate and you will read that even if kung fu influenced okinawa karate, karate or tode was an indigenous system of self defence therefore your argument is incorrect, okinawa karate id not a style of kung fu.




Just because some books tell you so doesn't mean that is true especially if the book has intention of promoting karate. In orient, there is this stupid idea that student cannot be better than his teacher. For this reason, liying about the orign of arts is sort of sport there.

Kanryo Higashona the teacher of Chojun Miyagi, the father of Gojuryu karate went to China and learned Chinese kungfu from a master for more than 10 years. The emphasis of the teaching was the sam chien (sanchin) kata of Ngo Cho Kun.

there was a lot of trade between China and Japan at one point, with Okinawa being nexus. A lot of Japanese /Okinawan traders travelling to many places in the South of China. Quanzhou was a fairly large trade centre between the Chinese and Japanese/Okinawans and it is there that it is believed Ngor Chor was taught to the Japanese/Okinawans where it was modified into Karate.

I also hear that if you compare not only sanchin from the naha-te styles like goju ryu and uechi ryu, but also tensho which is its partner. There is also a form called "seisan" in the naha-te line that is called "hangetsu" in modern shotokan. They are all very similar.

Here is something you find it interesting.

"All Okinawan Karate is said to be influenced by 5 Ancestor's Chuan Fa and Fukkien White Crane. This is a topic of much controversy, but those dedicated karateka who have trained with the old style Okinawan Shinshii (teachers) will agree that the lineage they were taught includes Southern and Northern influences.

The Shuri Te or Shorin traditions trace their lineage to the Fukkien Shaolin Temple. Bushi Sokon Machimura (Matsumura) studied for many years at the Fukkien Shaolin Temple under the tutelage of Sifu Iwah. He learned Shaolin Chuan Fa and White Crane. He received a teacher's license and integrated these lessons with his knowledge of Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu (martial tradition of the Satsuma Samurai Clan) and the Ti he learned from Tode Sakugawa. He originally called his art Shaolin Ssu or Suidi. The Sanchin of the orthodox Ryu of Shorin, Matsumura Seito, is called Shorinji Sanchin Kata (Shaolin Temple Saam Chien Quan). Another high level form is the "Hakutsuru" or "White Crane" Kata. These forms are seen only in this style of Okinawan Karate, although there are other forms most notably Goju Sanchin, and Happoren, a White Crane based Naha Te Kata.

ShorinJi Saam Chien uses controlled, unforced breathing as compared to the raspy and forced exhalation of Goju. Use of open hand strikes are prevalent. Many teachers feel that the former is more natural and less harmful than the Goju Ryu Sanchin kata. They point to the fact that many ShuriTe stylists live well beyond their 80s , whereas the majority of Goju practitioners usually die in their 60s or early 70s; often from strokes, aneurysms or heart attacks. As a people Okinawans have one of the longest lifespans of any society on the planet. Food for thought.

Hohan Soken, the familial heir to Matsumura Seito (Suidi) ShuriTe, also studied with a Chinese tea merchant, Wu Xiangui, who went by the Okinawan name of Gokenki. Chojun Miyagi (Goju) and Kenwa Mabuni (S h i t o Ryu) also studied Gokenki's White Crane forms, and this further added to the Chuan Fa influence seen in Okinawa Karate. Any real Okinawan Sensei knows these things, and was taught and teaches, that these are fundamental parts of the true art of Ryukyuan Toudi (now Japanized to "Karate).

Hohan Soken also studied for many years on Taiwan in the "Feeding Crane" style. This further enhanced his understanding of the Crane aspect of Shuri Te, and created more diversity and options in an already well-rounded fighting style.

Higashionna Kanryo Shinshii, father of what is now called Okinawan Goju Ryu, learned some"Whooping Crane" Chuan Fa from a Chinese master by the name of Ru Ru Ko. He trained under Ru Ru Ko's Sifu too- Wai Xinxian. Uechi Kanbun studied Tiger Fist Gung Fu under Zhou Zihe. Neither of these masters earned a teaching certificate, but the added knowledge of these arts helped in the formation of the "Ti" (Okinawa Hand) that came out of the Naha district. Hence, the term Naha Te which denotes the Naha City styles of Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu (for the most part).

Shuri Te and Tomari Te, integrated and became Shorin Ryu. This style is a "hard-soft" one too, all Okinawan Karate is. In fact the genesis of the Goju Ryu name has a funny story of miscommunication behind it. It is more like second generation Whooping Crane Chuan Fa, with lots of closed fist strikes. Shuri Te tends to be fast, and offensive, with shallow stances and liberal use of hand techs. Low kicks are the norm, but in some ryuha (subsystems) high kicks are also taught. Positioning is key. Shuri Te is the major influence on Orthodox Shorin, whereas the other ryuha have many Tomari Te elements in their systems (Ryukyuan Kempo and Matsubayashi Ryu in particular). Shuri Te was the style of the palace guards at Shuri Castle, home of the Okinawan royal family. In fact Matsumura was the head palace guard for 3 Okinawan kings. He was over 80 when he retired!

Naha Te was the Ti of the ordinary man. The Sanchin of this style truly reflects the hard work needed to forge one's body into a thing of iron. Although open hand strikes predominate in Uechi Ryu and the movements are less tense in their kata, the same can be said for Uech Ryu. It's kinda' funny how many experts refer to Shuri Te as being an "External Style" and Goju and Uechi "Internal Styles", when their kata execution points toward the external side. I guess the use of more "circular" movement in Naha Te lends to this. Shuri Te makes use of angular and circular movement. Speed and quickness vs. deliberate power is definitely emphasized."

Delta, this is you (http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame33.html). <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>



Edited by - vapour on September 12 2003 11:48:48

Vapour, your link is broken, 'file not found', atr least on MY server.

btw,
I've just reviewed the past 3 pages over coffee and a danish, still waking up and . .. em . .anybody got a picture of an Americana? I ain't proud. What is it? (I KNOW it's a sub. I just don't knwo what it looks like)

My understanding (not a sub wrestling person) is that it is a kimura, just the bjj name for one.

...they don't have very fond memories of kimura, hence the different name

AKUMA
I WILL CHANGE MY KEYBOARD SOON, UNFORTUNATELY I DO NOT TYPE FROM HOME BUT FROM A SPORTS CENTER WHERE THERE IS MY DOJO.

DOTCHER
" Really, what does your MSc have to do with a karetaka getting his ass kicked? What real relevance does research in physiologic pathways have to do with basic inertia statements? "
FIRST OF ALL IS NOT AN MSc but an MPHIL, DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE, OH GOD MAYBE NOT(RESEARCH DEGREE IS SUPERIOR TO A NORMAL MSc, I ACTUALLY PUBLISHED)
KARATE IS A PHYSICAL ACTIVITIES, POWER, SPEED, FORCE ARE COMPONENT OF KARATE AND, SORRY BUT YOU ARE VERY IGNORANT, PHYSICS IS 90% OF BIOMECHANICS AND I DOT BELIEVE THAT IN COLLEGE YOU DO KNEMATIC ANALYSIS COMPUTERISED OR DEVICED AEREODYNAMICS HELMETS FOR CYCLING FASTER OR USE THA FORCE PLATFORM TO MEASURE THE SPEED OF A A KARATE PUNCH!! AND STUDY THE BETTER SCIENTIFIC ANGULATION TO MAKE IT MORE POWERFULL.
TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE, WHEN I TEACH I AM ABLE TO POINT OUT THE CORRECT BIOMECHANICAL MOVEMENTS,WHEN I WAS COACH FOR SPORT KARATE I DID PHYSIOLOGICALLY BASED TRAINING AND SO ON, SO PLEASE DO NOT SAY STUPIDITY LIKE I AM 45, I AM 34 DO NOT CONTINUE

"As an aside you talk about your karate style in its original form having everything you need for fighting in all the ranges. Why then do you feel necessary to point toward your judo dan for verification and evidence of groundfighting / newaza knowledge? Seems slightly contradictory.
I’ve known Okinawan karate practitioners and they were quite skilled but made no claim that they had a complete system, you do so and then contradict yourself"

WHY?????WHY???????? SO THICK YOU MAKE ME CRAZY. I LOVE MARTIAL ARTS THEREFORE I ALWAYS TRY OTHER SYSTEMS I AM NOT A CLOSE MINDED AS YOU. I ADORE JUDO, I COMPETED AND HAD THE HONOUR TO TRAIN SEVERAL TIMES AT THE KODOKAN NOT BECAUSE MY STYLE IS INCOMPLETE. I SAID ABOUT JUDO BECAUSE HERE THERE ARE PEOPLE SO NARROW MINDED THAT IF AN OKINAWAN KARATEKA SPEAK ABOUT GROUNDFIGHTING IS **** DOES NOT KNOW, I WANTED TO POINTED OUT THAT I HAD A BACKGROUND IN JUDO AND NIPPON KEMPO THAT I KNEW WHAT I WAS SPEAKING ABOUT. I HAVE SEEN GRAPPLING IN OKINAWA AND IN OKINAWA KATAS.

NOW ABOUT DEATH PENALTY, IS IT TOO LONG TO EXPLAIN AND I DO NOT HAVE WILL. I AM CHISTIANS AND I DO NOT BELIEVE IN IT. MY ETHICS OBLIGES ME TO FOLLOW THE TEACHING OF JESUS AND HE WOULD HAVE BEEN PISS OFF ABOUT IT, ISN'T IT???? ANYWAY I EXEMPLIFIED FOR YOU, THIS IS NOT THE PLACE AND TIME TO SPEAK ABOUT IT.

VAPOUR YOU ARE TOO LONG, I AM SURE YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE VERY VERY CONVINCING, MAYBE IF YOU MAKE THEM MORE SHORT I WILL ANSWER TO YOU. SORRY DO NOT FEEL EXCLUDED I LIKE YOU ANYWAY

OSS

"Engrish does not mine strong point"
YOU SAY: ENGLISH IS NOT MY STRONG POINT
SORRY VAPOUR I DID NOT IMMAGINE, I THOUGHT YOU CAME FROM THE UK, DO YOU WANT SOME TUITION? FOR YOU IS FREE.

BY THE WAY THIS IS FROM YOUR PROFILE
"Started my MA in Aikido. Moved to Taijichuan. Started to do Judo to practice pushing hand"

FROM A PERSON LIKE YOU, WITH CLEAR IDEA ABOUT WHAT IS JUDO, CONSISTENT IN HIS TRAINING, IT IS ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO HEAR SOME INTERESTING ARGUMENTS.PLEASE STOP TO READ BOOKS WANKING AND START TO MOVE YOUR ASS,SWEAT A BIT IN THE DOJO AND DO SOME WORK, MAYBE AFTER THAT I CAN TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY.

OSS

Thanks Doc. So an 'Americana' was 'invented by a Japanese? lol. That's just so like them.

To Deltaforce,

While there may be differences between countries a major component of a M.Sc in the US is based on research. In the US, master's are divided into either Master's of Science (ex biochem, physics, etc.) or a Master's of Arts (ex History, Philosophy etc.). There is then a doctorate in philosophy (PhD) which is the term used across disciplines (ex either history or physics). But again this has nothing to do with the TOPIC!

Again learn to fucking read, I did not say physics wasn't a component to MA's, I said it wasn't relevant to the TOPIC. I also did not say you were 45, I said that was my mental image.



Edited by - Dochter on September 12 2003 14:46:02

Fantastic pic Vapour!

Omar -

You can see the some of the Kimura, Americana, Keylock or whatever varients of it with the following links.

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/kimura/

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/valetudo/

Look at the position of the guy's left arm at the end of the clip. See how it is bent backwards with that shitty choke/control attempt? That is how I got that idea that Mr. Scars is Kimura-ing himself. Then SLJ pointed that the move was actually an americana.



Edited by - MrMcFu on September 12 2003 14:58:28

The Americana is a keylock. These are taught at my BJJ school as discrete submissions because they move in the opposite directions and cannot always be done from the opposite positions.

Deltaforce,
You are truly amazing.

You keep calling me narrow-minded, but you haven't even asked what I think about your basic points, which you refuse to provide in a simple, comprehensible form. So I will continue to ask you to please formulate your points so that I might understand them, and then maybe I can tell you what I think of them.

A lot of people who are directly contradicting you are STRICTLY traditional martial art practitioners...IS THIS SINKING IN?

In fact, the only pure MMA person who's flaming you is...MMAPhil? I think so.

Anyone can look at 'superpartes' and tell it's made up of Latin word parts. But no, I didn't and won't study Latin.

You still haven't put in the time to understand English.

If you can't speak or write the language well enough to be understood, DON'T ARGUE IN IT.

Thanks Wastrel, I was originally going to say that the americana was the keylock but then convinced myself it was the kimura.

Wastrel - Thanks for that. I don't know the concise definitions for this family of joint locks. At my school we follow the examples, but never get too much into the naming of the moves. If you have any other light you would like to shed on it, I would be most happy to read about it.

In BJJ:

Americana - Arm bent up

Kimura - Arm bent down



-----------------------------------------------------------
"Oh you bastard, I fucking hate pikeys!" - Georgeous George

Correct.

The Kimura looks like what I learned once as a 'chicken wing'. I never thought about reversing the direction like in an Americana.