http://youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw&mode=related&search=

Chen Ziqiang of Chen village push hands.

Interesting vid. However, I noticed its very much the old fashioned way of having someone go soft and then ambush the patsy with shitloads of power. It wasn't as if both people were using realistic force to attack - just the instructor to demonstrate. I think anyone can do that trick. For example get someone to lightly touch hands with you and move hands around a bit, then suddenly throw in a very strong force technique, chances are they will cop it sweet because their level of readiness is not set for it.

Yes, clearly a demonstration, but you can see the application.

I think there is a little more to it than just going light then rushing in. However, my complaint would be the fixed-step format and trying to use it for demonstrating more free-flowing martial techniques. The fixed step is OK for lower levels of training, but it is not very realistic and can lead to some bad habits.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw&mode=related&search=

Chen Ziqiang of Chen village push hands.



There's certainly some non-compliant stuff there. But, do you really thing there was "FOR REAL" fighting on that video?

Not exactly, I just wanted to add a catchy tag line. It was an excuse to post a good example of push hands.

This video shows why I like Tai Chi Chuan, but not Tai Chi- Martial techniques launched against a fully resisting opponent once a weakness in their defence is found. Push hands about is finding and exploiting a weakness (such as a failure to resist, or guide, the pressure from the opponent) rather than ambushing them once they've become docile with the slow speed- otherwise you'd see them both rushing to attack each other.

I liked it. If it was for lower level people (which, from the basic tennent commentary, it seemed so) then the static feet was fine and his instruction was basically taught the first day of Judo. "If he pushes, pull. Pulls, push. Neither, push him and make him decide."

The techs looked pretty practical (Did I see O-ouchi Gari mayhaps in there?) and the two guys both seemed keyed up and even if it was a demo and a mismatch, the uke seemed pretty hard set on at least giving a good show for himself. IMHO a fine video for Taiji.

I was hoping to see someone in an armbar or choke - or at least bleeding.

NOW I'M GOING TO CRY.

Ah Tai Chi Push Hands. A good training tool that is one of the most obvious watered down crocks of **** ever abused.

We all laugh at Chi Sau I now put this in the same boat.

Way to many variables (politics) involved.

Bad structure, too much strength, high level low level I oculd go on for days.

I'm sorry for being a noob. Please explain.

Taiji as a fighting art. FOR REAL
I'm glad I read this thread, that vid is nice.
From chen village? Chen WAREHOUSE more like! I'd hate to live there, quite draughty.

Anyway, title is SO WRONG, but it definitely did the job so I forgive you.

What I saw was some chinese guy quite good at shoving and tugging being used to demonstrate some basic points for another instructor, the good way. That is to say he's allowed to do his thing against a not-fully-resisting-but-non-compliant student, and AFTER he's done something the instructor uses this to explain a point, well done you fellas.
Much better than trying to to a specific pre-decided action when a student is caught between knowing how to resist it and knowing he should comply to allow instruction ... which kinda happens at the end.

In my book good shoving and tugging can really help win fights, I just wish the Tai Chi pushing wasn't so worshipped/derided.
The comment by WorldWarCheese

I liked it.
... his instruction was basically taught the first day of Judo. is spot-on.

Yeh i've alwalys felt that Tai Chi is basically learning Judo (or more specifically schwai Chiuo (sp)) the long way round.

I dont think comparing Judo to Tai Chi is accurate.

The goals are very different.

Perhaps Push Hands is similiar to Judo but as I have never trained Judo, I cannot confirm or deny that.

In regards to Push Hands, I value it as a drill to learn sensitivity. When done and practiced with an unwilling opponent, it is very valuable against a clincher/shooter. In that regards, I am sure that is similiar to Judo. But that is where the similiarity ends in my opinion.

I dont think comparing Judo to Tai Chi is accurate.

The goals are very different.

Perhaps Push Hands is similiar to Judo but as I have never trained Judo, I cannot confirm or deny that.

In regards to Push Hands, I value it as a drill to learn sensitivity. When done and practiced with an unwilling opponent, it is very valuable against a clincher/shooter. In that regards, I am sure that is similiar to Judo. But that is where the similiarity ends in my opinion.

What is the goal of Tai Chi? And what makes it differant to the goal of Judo?

In the 24 we only see one punch. (and please dont give me the usual bullshit about 'wild horse parts its mane being a palm strike etc) It is pretty much all very clearly sweeps, throws and pushes, some of them exactly the same as their Judo counterparts, i.e snake creeps down = shoulder wheel throw.

Therefore i believe that the goals are the same, to put people on their ass in a fight.

Tai Chi includes striking. Judoka don't punch each other in the face.