If the risk in class for a dehabilitating injury is high, then the exercise is fundamentally flawed. So, instead of keeping such exercises around because your school is "bad ass", alternatives should be found which still can give the necessary training stimulus. Otherwise, you are not practicing MA. You just have roosters in a cock fight.


Perhaps you have some clips of this specific "test" you could share to give us a better understanding?

As I mentioned to KempoFist, I just moved down to NC, and so I don't have an adequate student base at the moment to put up a video. Once I do, however, I'll throw one up--give me a few months.

As for the whole injury issue, besides bruises, people don't tend to get injured in class. Sometimes it happens, especially with the multiman drills, but even then it's a bloody nose, and nothing broken (besides the occasional toe, which is unavoidable).

Our tests however, are quite hard, and injuries are more likely. A yellow belt test is `~3 hours ,and they are ~8 hours long for black belts, and not all people pass. There are only ~63 1st generation black belts under my Sifu (although quite a few more 2nd generations). It's hard, and it takes 6-8 years of solid training for most people to get their black belts, although less time is needed if someone has prior experience.

Crippling strikes are simulated of course (a kick near the knee results in the person acting as if their knee ligaments are broken, etc), but beyond that, it's as realistic as you can get.

i don't like this part at all. so if you kick someone near the knee then they back off and are "defeated"??

i would have to ask how you KNOW that you are capable of kicking someone in the knee in such a precise way, and with that much force? have you done it in a real fight? have your students? are the people who are "acting" as if their knee has been damaged experienced it first hand to know how to react?

i don't believe in relying on techniques that cannot be trained in an alive manner (eye gouges, throat strikes, "crippling" knee strikes, etc.) how can you know that they will work when you need them.

i used to think that my kicks would take out any opponent's knee. then i asked my sifu. he said "can you kick through a 2x4? well, get back to me when you can do that, and we'll talk about taking people out with kicks to the knee."

can knee kicks cause crippling damage? yes, of course, in a perfect scenario, with perfect angle, perfect force and lots of luck. will they work in a self-defense situation? most likely not.

i don't like this part at all. so if you kick someone near the knee then they back off and are "defeated"??

i would have to ask how you KNOW that you are capable of kicking someone in the knee in such a precise way, and with that much force? have you done it in a real fight? have your students? are the people who are "acting" as if their knee has been damaged experienced it first hand to know how to react?

i don't believe in relying on techniques that cannot be trained in an alive manner (eye gouges, throat strikes, "crippling" knee strikes, etc.) how can you know that they will work when you need them.

i used to think that my kicks would take out any opponent's knee. then i asked my sifu. he said "can you kick through a 2x4? well, get back to me when you can do that, and we'll talk about taking people out with kicks to the knee."

can knee kicks cause crippling damage? yes, of course, in a perfect scenario, with perfect angle, perfect force and lots of luck. will they work in a self-defense situation? most likely not.

I agree with this as well.

Knee kicks, while they CAN work, shouldn't be relied upon as the fight ender that one might think it is.

Hey, I don't think any one technique should be looked upon as a fight-ender, UNLESS you've used it yourself in a real fight, and stopped that guy from being able to attack you.

I've used eye strikes (just fast pokes) in real situations against people that didn't know how to react to them (drunks), and it worked like a fuckin' charm, but when used against people that know how to deal with it (training brothers and instructors), they walked right through it like I didn't even touch them..

So, I say it's all relative.

i don't like this part at all. so if you kick someone near the knee then they back off and are "defeated"??

i would have to ask how you KNOW that you are capable of kicking someone in the knee in such a precise way, and with that much force? have you done it in a real fight? have your students? are the people who are "acting" as if their knee has been damaged experienced it first hand to know how to react?

i don't believe in relying on techniques that cannot be trained in an alive manner (eye gouges, throat strikes, "crippling" knee strikes, etc.) how can you know that they will work when you need them.

i used to think that my kicks would take out any opponent's knee. then i asked my sifu. he said "can you kick through a 2x4? well, get back to me when you can do that, and we'll talk about taking people out with kicks to the knee."

can knee kicks cause crippling damage? yes, of course, in a perfect scenario, with perfect angle, perfect force and lots of luck. will they work in a self-defense situation? most likely not.

I have poked people in the eye (on the street and in training), they work well, and there is no force or precise aim neccesary, so I see no reason why those can't be trained without hurting your opponent.

As for knee kicks, go take an anatomy class with a bit of biophysics. It is remarkably easy to take out a knee; the tendons don't hold up well to force. During training, I hit people all the time with enough force above (and occasionally below) the knee to cause them to limp. Such force is enough to take out a knee when neccesary, and I know my aim is good enough because I practice it.

I guess in your mind you shouldn't practice groin kicks as well, since most people won't train those, or strikes to the neck...

I have poked people in the eye (on the street and in training), they work well, and there is no force or precise aim neccesary, so I see no reason why those can't be trained without hurting your opponent.

As for knee kicks, go take an anatomy class with a bit of biophysics. It is remarkably easy to take out a knee; the tendons don't hold up well to force. During training, I hit people all the time with enough force above (and occasionally below) the knee to cause them to limp. Such force is enough to take out a knee when neccesary, and I know my aim is good enough because I practice it.

I guess in your mind you shouldn't practice groin kicks as well, since most people won't train those, or strikes to the neck...

take all the anatomy classes you like, when it comes to fighting, anatomy is theory unless you test it, preferably on a large, strong opponent who has a high threshold for pain.

limping is not going to cut it. i have been kicked in the knee hard enough that my leg swelled up like a melon, and i have serious ligament issues now, but it didn't stop me AT THE TIME. it hurt afterwards, after the adrenaline was gone, sure, but that wouldn't have stopped me in a fight.

if you haven't tried these things out in the street, you have no business teaching them as valid self defense. period.

we don't do groin kicks much, because i don't think they are a good choice, as you cannot realistically train them, and again, many people can keep fighting through them, at least long enough to finish you off.

you will find that people on this site don't put a lot of weight into things that have not been pressure tested. we tend to think that being able to practice what you are going to do, against a resisting opponent is the only way to build the skills you need to defend yourself. counting on things like eye poke, groin strike, throat strike, knee strike to be a magic "off button" is a serious error.

now, you could always go out and pick fights in biker bars, skinhead hangouts, gang territory etc, and test all that out. if you do, please get video, we would love to see this stuff in action.

take all the anatomy classes you like, when it comes to fighting, anatomy is theory unless you test it, preferably on a large, strong opponent who has a high threshold for pain.

limping is not going to cut it. i have been kicked in the knee hard enough that my leg swelled up like a melon, and i have serious ligament issues now, but it didn't stop me AT THE TIME. it hurt afterwards, after the adrenaline was gone, sure, but that wouldn't have stopped me in a fight.

if you haven't tried these things out in the street, you have no business teaching them as valid self defense. period.

we don't do groin kicks much, because i don't think they are a good choice, as you cannot realistically train them, and again, many people can keep fighting through them, at least long enough to finish you off.

you will find that people on this site don't put a lot of weight into things that have not been pressure tested. we tend to think that being able to practice what you are going to do, against a resisting opponent is the only way to build the skills you need to defend yourself. counting on things like eye poke, groin strike, throat strike, knee strike to be a magic "off button" is a serious error.

now, you could always go out and pick fights in biker bars, skinhead hangouts, gang territory etc, and test all that out. if you do, please get video, we would love to see this stuff in action.

Couple of things:

1) Did your ligaments break, or just "have problems". With broken ligaments it's physically impossible to run.
2) While I haven't personally had the joy of breaking someone's knee, my instructor, as well as several of my fellow black belts, have indeed gone out into bars, etc, and have used this and pretty much every other technique we teach. Everything we do has been field tested. Knee kicks work.
3) Wear a cup, train groin kicks, that's what we do. On most people they (or knees) are remarkably easy to pull off.

you can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

i give up

you can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

i give up

Right...

Seems like you give up because I have:

1) countered your point regarding groin strikes, since you can train it
2) attested to my personal experience with eye strikes
3) attested to my instructors and peers experiences with striking the knees.
4) attested to the fact in WHKD, we do indeed go out and test what we teach people.

sure, keep drinking the kool aid. enjoy

That's a good point. I don't know why more fighters don't kick out each other's ACLs. 2 guesses: 1) some sort of gentlemen's conduct, since such injuries tend to ruin careers 2) (more plausible) there is so much Muy Thai in MMA that they become impractical in such situations.


BTW, if you are talking about destroying an ACL, I am living proof your ideas as to what a person can and cannot do after a "devastating knee injury" are wholly inaccurate.

Not only did I get up and walk away after the accident where I received the injury, I didn't even know my ACL was snapped through three additional months of training. I ultimately found out because I was sent to an orthopedist for what I thought was something unrelated to knee ligament problems. It was only then I learned I completely tore my ACL, tore my meniscus, and partially tore my PCL in addition to discovering I severely tore several rotator cuff, neck, and back muscles from the same accident.

I chose not to have my knee reconstructed for another three months and never did get any surgery on my shoulder, neck, and back. Also, I actually entered a tournament 5 days before knee surgery because someone bet me 20 bucks I wouldn't do it.

From a different incident, I am also living proof a partial MCL tear will not stop a person from being able to run, either.


Also, since you imply a "devastated knee by kick" too brute-ish a way to win an MMA fight, the logical conclusion is the following clip shows the "gentlemanly" way to destroy a knee in a sanctioned match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXOAlK_0BP8
link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXOAlK_0BP8

Explain, please? Does Muay Thai negate such an attack?

Muay Thai practitioners routinely train leg kicks and counters/blocks of them, as I am sure you are aware. Practitioners have the good sense to raise their leg up to block with their knee, or simply move their leg out of the way. Most people lack such good sense.

BTW, if you are talking about destroying an ACL, I am living proof your ideas as to what a person can and cannot do after a "devastating knee injury" are wholly inaccurate.

Not only did I get up and walk away after the accident where I received the injury, I didn't even know my ACL was snapped through three additional months of training. I ultimately found out because I was sent to an orthopedist for what I thought was something unrelated to knee ligament problems. It was only then I learned I completely tore my ACL, tore my meniscus, and partially tore my PCL in addition to discovering I severely tore several rotator cuff, neck, and back muscles from the same accident.

I chose not to have my knee reconstructed for another three months and never did get any surgery on my shoulder, neck, and back. Also, I actually entered a tournament 5 days before knee surgery because someone bet me 20 bucks I wouldn't do it.

From a different incident, I am also living proof a partial MCL tear will not stop a person from being able to run, either.


Also, since you imply a "devastated knee by kick" too brute-ish a way to win an MMA fight, the logical conclusion is the following clip shows the "gentlemanly" way to destroy a knee in a sanctioned match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXOAlK_0BP8
link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXOAlK_0BP8

I'm impressed, and since I don't have your medical records, can only say that you must be a rare case. According to everything i have learned and witnessed in medical school, most people can't fight when their MCL and ACL are torn (which is what usually happens with these strikes). Perhaps you were able to move because you only had lost one ligament. The ACL has a lot of backup in the PCL, and the same with the MCL and LCL. You got to hit a couple, which a good strike, or a knee bar (as per your video) will do.

Also, your video shows the devastation of knee damage. Strikes work just as well as locks to screw knees up. Wonder how well that guy could walk...

Finally, I should note that to the original point of this thread, I don't profess (or train) for rampant knee kicking. Just that it is one tool in many, and that it works when you have the opportunity, and that when we do the multiman drills, we hold off on applying contact to that joint .

I'm impressed, and since I don't have your medical records, can only say that you must be a rare case. According to everything i have learned and witnessed in medical school, most people can't fight when their MCL and ACL are torn (which is what usually happens with these strikes). Perhaps you were able to move because you only had lost one ligament. The ACL has a lot of backup in the PCL, and the same with the MCL and LCL. You got to hit a couple, which a good strike, or a knee bar (as per your video) will do.

Also, your video shows the devastation of knee damage. Strikes work just as well as locks to screw knees up. Wonder how well that guy could walk...

Finally, I should note that to the original point of this thread, I don't profess (or train) for rampant knee kicking. Just that it is one tool in many, and that it works when you have the opportunity, and that when we do the multiman drills, we hold off on applying contact to that joint .

I have (or had) pretty strong legs, but I am far from unique. Most people who injure ligaments under high stress situations may hurt, but can continue. It is in the following hours/days that the bleeding and swelling cause problems. (Heck, the late pro American footballer Lyle Alzado ruptured his Achilles tendon in the middle of a game and completed the game!)

Also, a fully torn MCL makes for a pretty unstable knee. It does not have the "backup" you describe. (Note: My MCL was not a complete tear.) However, even a completely torn ACL and completely torn PCL does not stop a person cold. The reason why Ken Shamrock's opponent could not continue was because it was a knee dislocation in addition to any ligament/meniscus damage. (Note: that wasn't a knee bar.)


The missing piece of this puzzle: People with effective MA training will keep their knees slightly bent. While you might be able to bring on some pain by kicking them in the knee and possibly disrupt their attack/game plan/open up chances for continued attack, you are not going to stop them in this fashion if they keep their knees bent. There is too much mobility and you are not going to "devastate the knee" by kicking it. Your "devastating knee kick" will mostly work on people who tend to lock out their knees. This is the only way you will get the isolation necessary to add the force required to cause significant knee damage in stand-up fighting. It just so happens the people who fight this way are untrained. Thus, you are training a "fight ender" which will only work on scrubs - or if you sucker kick (i.e.: commit battery). This is the reason why you don't see fights ended in the fashion you envision.

I don't feel like hashing this out again, but I went through this on MAP with Wado (another Kaju guy I believe, perhaps WHKD) and no the knee is not an easy thing to break fighting. Here is my post that everyone seemed to agree upon....

Our discussion spans from page 18 to 20 on this issue.
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64753&page=18&pp=15&highlight=knee

I disagree. My gut instinct when a kick comes near my leg is to knee check
http://www.usadojo.com/images/thaibox1smlopt.jpg

I cover up top and raise my knee to my elbow thus removing any chance of me getting struck where I'm REALLY worried (the outer thigh). Enough strikes to the thigh by a proficient kicker and I may not be able to stand.

I've had people go to kick my knee, and I can tell you that I never keep my leg planted. This takes zero training, because it is instinctual. I've said countless times to Kempo people I know who insist on the utility of the side kick to the knee, that unless your opponent has his foot caught in a bear trap, you're not doing anything to a knee. And even then, a simple pivot of the foot, pointing the knee bent into the strike will nullify any serious damage, and on the off-chance may cause him to spike the arch of his foot on the point of your knee :D

"You may be right that my grappling training doesn't account for multiple attackers, but your multiple attacker training doesn't account for grappling" Take that as you will.

You deserve a huge cookie for that one!!!

I have oin more than one occassion taken some big kicks to the knee from experienced Muay thai practioners. I've had some serious swelling, massive bruising & limps that have lasted a few days, but at no point has my knee been close to blown out & they certainly wouldn't have been fight enders.

I have (or had) pretty strong legs, but I am far from unique. Most people who injure ligaments under high stress situations may hurt, but can continue. It is in the following hours/days that the bleeding and swelling cause problems. (Heck, the late pro American footballer Lyle Alzado ruptured his Achilles tendon in the middle of a game and completed the game!)

Also, a fully torn MCL makes for a pretty unstable knee. It does not have the "backup" you describe. (Note: My MCL was not a complete tear.) However, even a completely torn ACL and completely torn PCL does not stop a person cold. The reason why Ken Shamrock's opponent could not continue was because it was a knee dislocation in addition to any ligament/meniscus damage. (Note: that wasn't a knee bar.)


The missing piece of this puzzle: People with effective MA training will keep their knees slightly bent. While you might be able to bring on some pain by kicking them in the knee and possibly disrupt their attack/game plan/open up chances for continued attack, you are not going to stop them in this fashion if they keep their knees bent. There is too much mobility and you are not going to "devastate the knee" by kicking it. Your "devastating knee kick" will mostly work on people who tend to lock out their knees. This is the only way you will get the isolation necessary to add the force required to cause significant knee damage in stand-up fighting. It just so happens the people who fight this way are untrained. Thus, you are training a "fight ender" which will only work on scrubs - or if you sucker kick (i.e.: commit battery). This is the reason why you don't see fights ended in the fashion you envision.

I agree that martial artists bend their knees. That doesn't really help with the kicks I am thinking of though, which are designed to take out the MCL (and the ACL) which as you said makes the knee pretty unstable.

Again, as I said it's not like I solely rely on this technique. It's just one of many.