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Uri Shatil
3/25/2007 11:34pm,
I was sparring with a karate guy earlier today. Kyokoshinkai. After a while, we talked about other styles of karate, and specifically shotokan, and I mentioned ground fighting. It was at that point that I realized I know absolutely nothing about shotokan ground fighting, I've never seen it, and I've always wondered about it. So, I pose this question to you all, for I am very curious.

Videos? Articles? Books? I don't know why I'm so curious, I just am.

Nyktidromos
3/26/2007 4:54am,
You have to understand irimi,mostly practiced at Egami Ryu,thesedays.ALL techniques of Shotokan includes sen no sen,go no sen,and diai bunkai.Ending at the ground is the resault of gravity,mostly seen in the non stop dojo kumite.GICHIN FUNAKOSHI says few things about throws,in Karate-Do Kyohan.Someone has to be an intelligent 2nd dan and up,to see clearly this subject.My advice:bufu ikkan,that means everyday practice,or,keep the budo alive.

Shuma-Gorath
3/26/2007 11:37am,
You have to take Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to understand Shotokan's ground fighting. My instructor has black belts in both and we joke about it all the time.

Goju - Joe
3/26/2007 11:59am,
You have to understand irimi,mostly practiced at Egami Ryu,thesedays.ALL techniques of Shotokan includes sen no sen,go no sen,and diai bunkai.Ending at the ground is the resault of gravity,mostly seen in the non stop dojo kumite.GICHIN FUNAKOSHI says few things about throws,in Karate-Do Kyohan.Someone has to be an intelligent 2nd dan and up,to see clearly this subject.My advice:bufu ikkan,that means everyday practice,or,keep the budo alive.


I read Karate-Do near the end Funakoshi throws in the fact that Okinawans love to wrestle and spent a lot of time as a youth having impromptu "matches" with other youths.

It's one of those weird Japanesse thing in which wrestling is seen as low brow, a fun activity, but not serious like karate.

DerAuslander
3/26/2007 12:38pm,
You have to understand irimi,mostly practiced at Egami Ryu,thesedays.ALL techniques of Shotokan includes sen no sen,go no sen,and diai bunkai.Ending at the ground is the resault of gravity,mostly seen in the non stop dojo kumite.GICHIN FUNAKOSHI says few things about throws,in Karate-Do Kyohan.Someone has to be an intelligent 2nd dan and up,to see clearly this subject.My advice:bufu ikkan,that means everyday practice,or,keep the budo alive.

OK...I know all of the Japanese terms you tossed out there.

I have a copy of the Karate-Do Kyohan...

And I'm still going to say WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

DerAuslander
3/26/2007 12:39pm,
I was sparring with a karate guy earlier today. Kyokoshinkai. After a while, we talked about other styles of karate, and specifically shotokan, and I mentioned ground fighting. It was at that point that I realized I know absolutely nothing about shotokan ground fighting, I've never seen it, and I've always wondered about it. So, I pose this question to you all, for I am very curious.

Videos? Articles? Books? I don't know why I'm so curious, I just am.

Shotokan has no real groundfighting curriculum. Throws and sweeps are a part of Shotokan, though many schools do not cover them at all, and those that do may or may not allow them in sparring.

wildwills
3/26/2007 12:41pm,
OK...I know all of the Japanese terms you tossed out there.

I have a copy of the Karate-Do Kyohan...

And I'm still going to say WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?


I have to second that motion....there is not bunkai in Shotokan, nor any ground-fighting, so just train/dance.

You only end up on the ground in Shotokan be either being ko'ed, swept, or losing your balance.

Odacon
3/26/2007 12:59pm,
This reminds me of a certain frustrated shotokan black belt on a certain karate forum trying to convince me that their "floorwork" is and always has been part of shotokan. How I laughed. In the end, I suppose these people think they are making karate seem better by claiming to have it all, but they are actually doing it a great disservice as it comes across as a desperate attempt to jump on the grappling bandwagon.

wildwills
3/26/2007 1:25pm,
I suppose these people think they are making karate seem better by claiming to have it all, but they are actually doing it a great disservice as it comes across as a desperate attempt to jump on the grappling bandwagon.


Just like the folks in some Shotokan circles who profess to have discovered the ancient and lost bunkai of Bassai...the anti-grapple ftw.

DerAuslander
3/26/2007 1:46pm,
Which just shows you they don't even know the bunkai for Bassai...because I don't think there's anything in there that could be classified as "anti-grapple"...

pauli
3/26/2007 2:25pm,
u-punches are really shooting for over/underhooks for a seatbelt hold. CAN'T GRAPPLE ME IF I HOLD ON FOR DEAR LIFE, CAN YOU?

wildwills
3/26/2007 2:30pm,
Which just shows you they don't even know the bunkai for Bassai...because I don't think there's anything in there that could be classified as "anti-grapple"...

Exactly...that's why I picked it as an example. I'm sure they would probably say that the yamazuki after the 90 degree turn would equate to some sort of throw somehow....LOL.

wildwills
3/26/2007 2:31pm,
u-punches are really shooting for over/underhooks for a seatbelt hold. CAN'T GRAPPLE ME IF I HOLD ON FOR DEAR LIFE, CAN YOU?


Good one.

DerAuslander
3/26/2007 2:56pm,
Exactly...that's why I picked it as an example. I'm sure they would probably say that the yamazuki after the 90 degree turn would equate to some sort of throw somehow....LOL.

How does a throw equal anti-grappling?

Uri Shatil
3/26/2007 8:15pm,
You only end up on the ground in Shotokan be either being ko'ed, swept, or losing your balance.

Right, but what if you're, let's say, fighting a BJJ guy, and you're on the ground, and you do Shotokan... what the Hell are you supposed to do?


You have to take Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to understand Shotokan's ground fighting. My instructor has black belts in both and we joke about it all the time.

I've done a little bit of BJJ. What you're telling me is that Shotokan ground fighting is just BJJ? So, if you do Shotokan, to really learn all aspects of fighting you also need BJJ?

Feryk
3/26/2007 9:27pm,
Right, but what if you're, let's say, fighting a BJJ guy, and you're on the ground, and you do Shotokan... what the Hell are you supposed to do?

Pray.

Seriously, though, the 'normal' answer is, 'Don't go to the ground.' or some other idiocy. Karate does NOT have anti-grappling. I love Karate, but stuffing takedowns, etc. ain't Shotokan.




I've done a little bit of BJJ. What you're telling me is that Shotokan ground fighting is just BJJ? So, if you do Shotokan, to really learn all aspects of fighting you also need BJJ?

:spanky: If you think Shotokan 'ground fighting' is BJJ then you need serious help.

Shotokan is Karate, which is striking. BJJ is grappling. Different arts. If you want to learn ALL aspects of fighting, study striking, throws, submissions, takedowns, weapons, etc. The list goes on. If you are looking to add a ground game to your Shotokan, then BJJ is a good choice. If you want to learn more about throws, Judo or wrestling will probably help you.