I understand that this is meant to aid in compiling history. I was stating the history I had heard about a style that I care very little bit about. I understand fully that pieces of what I have heard may have been skewed by biases of the people I have heard them from, just as I suspect of everything in this forum. I'm am ever so sorry that in my sharing what I had heard from other people just like you seems to have offended you ever so much. Maybe you should go to a touchy feely forum to vent your emotions?

Heh.

See, this is how the conversation went.

You stated a claim.

I informed you that you were incorrect, and then explained why.

Rather than admitting you were wrong, you then continued to argue. So, I obliged you, and thus we end up here. If it's information you care little about, then why continue to try to defend your claims?

Heh.

See, this is how the conversation went.

You stated a claim.

I informed you that you were incorrect, and then explained why.

Rather than admitting you were wrong, you then continued to argue. So, I obliged you, and thus we end up here. If it's information you care little about, then why continue to try to defend your claims?

True, I mixed up two words on a timeline. That's not a huge error. I've gone back, and yeah I admit that I mixed them up. You also have made many incorrect statements. Stating that there is no connection between Mu Duk Kwon and Ohdo Kwon even though they are both direct derivatives of Tang So Do is entirely incorrect. And I'll take your advice; since it seems I've been pissing on your lawn, a lawn that I don't care about, I'll leave you and your piss covered lawn to your own devices and will refrain from pissing in this direction in the future.

You also have made many incorrect statements. Stating that there is no connection between Mu Duk Kwon and Ohdo Kwon even though they are both direct derivatives of Tang So Do is entirely incorrect.

Prove that incorrect.

Dangsudo is a generic term. I never said that there was no connection between the Mudkgwan and the Odogwan. I said that the Odogwan did not grow out of the Mudukgwan, which, again, was in response to your admitted mistake.


And I'll take your advice; since it seems I've been pissing on your lawn, a lawn that I don't care about, I'll leave you and your piss covered lawn to your own devices and will refrain from pissing in this direction in the future.

You're welcome back any time. Just remember to follow the rules.

Mudukgwan is one of the basis' for classic ITF, before the split with the SK military. It is true that he came up with his own rules and eventually created his own style, but he did in fact learn one of the predecessors to the ITF system. He even makes mention of this in his autobiography.

Yes, Jhoon Rhee did break with the ITF, but not before he had taught Allen Steen and not before he had taught Pat B. That is why there are now two lines of TKD claiming descent from Jhoon Rhee. Both are legitimate.

Sorry, but this is very very wrong. MDK had nothting to do with ITF. It was a seperate kwan founded by Whang Ki. ITF is derived from Oh Do Kwan founded by Gen. Choi. ITF had nothing to do with any other kwans accept teh Oh Do Kwan. KKW TKD was derived through the merger of kwans, including some MDK people.

Don't confuse the organization with the system. Jhoon Rhee was a member of the Oh Do Kwan, but I don't believe he was an ITF person. By the time the ITF was formed he was already over here teaching his blend of TKD.

Soo Bak Ki + Taekyon => Tang So Do
Tang So Do + Hwang Gi => Soo Bak Do
Hwang Gi + Soo Bak Do + Time => Tang So Do Moo Duk Kwan
Tang So Do Moo Duk Kwan + Time => Modern Moo Duk Kwan

Tang So Do is also one of the most important contributions incorporated into ITF TKD. And Ohdo Kwan is the style of the SK Military. It's origins are unique from that of other styles of ITF TKD, however that is another subject. Do you see the connection, or do I need to make a pneumonic device?

A couple of things. First you are assuming that Hwang Ki did in fact learn Taekkyon and Soo Bak Ki. This has been disputed as not many people practiced TK and there is no hard evidence of SBK exisiting. His first real learning experience was with a Mst. Yang who taught him Chuan Fa. He also studied with GM Kuk, Won-lee, who, as a side note, gave him permission to use the name TSD, since it was what he came up with first.

Next we have to take into account that there was a split in the MDK family when Hwang Ki decided not to follow the path of the other kwans and join up with the KKW TKD. Many of his seniors split from him and joined the KKW, which is why we have MDK TKD.

TSD was not incorporated into the ITF...ITF was ODK, which as you stated, was also the SK military martial art. ODK is ITF is ODK...pure and simple. When Gen Choi, didn't get his way with the KKW people, he split from the group forming the ITF. The only reason ODK was the "practiced" art in the military was due to Gen. Choi's connections with the Korean President at that time.

[quote=Errant108]

Yes, it has everything to do with ITF. Ohdo Kwan grew from Tang So Do which was directly related to Tang So Do. After Gen. Choi left the military, he started the ITF off of Ohdo Kwan. If that means that they have absolutely nothing to do with eachother, then I guess you're right.

Again wrong. Gen Choi, learned Shotokan karate while in Japan and then studied with GM Lee, Won-kuk. At no time did he ever study under Hwang Ki, nor do the MDK people ever state such a thing. ODK does not come from Hwang Ki's TSD. Now if you are saying that it stems from Lee, Won-kuk's TSD (since he was the one who first used that term) then I would agree with you.

Khadgar, you ITF nutriding piece of ****. You have awoken me from my long slumber. (OK, its only been six weeks or so, but still) and I am not happy. Your narrow minded ITF nutriding and pathetic sucking up of crappy propaganda as history makes me want to kick you in the head - in a most loving way, of course. Errant has teh correct, and besides, Jun Rhee is a Jidokwan guy, not Odokwan or Mudukwan. Having studied under numerous instructors from Jidokwan, Sonmukwan, Mudukkwan, and Odokwan, I feel pretty comfortable in saying that quality has less to do with the kwan than with the instructor and their approach to training - plus your own approach to training (i.e. you can lead a horse to water blah blah blah).

Again, I support the merger because I want to see punching to the head in WTF rules. On the other hand, the current rule set of WTF TKD has made it possible to develop kicking within TKD to a much higher level than existed when TKD was just branching off from being Korean Karate (i.e. Dangsudo/Kongsudo). Heck, when I first started TKD (when we still punched to the head and did sweeps), a lot of the flashier kicks didn't even exist yet and we did a lot of the kicks differently than we do now.

[quote=khadgar]

Again wrong. Gen Choi, learned Shotokan karate while in Japan and then studied with GM Lee, Won-kuk. At no time did he ever study under Hwang Ki, nor do the MDK people ever state such a thing. ODK does not come from Hwang Ki's TSD. Now if you are saying that it stems from Lee, Won-kuk's TSD (since he was the one who first used that term) then I would agree with you.

Actually, there is scant evidence that Gen Choi ever went to Japan. I've read a few accounts that he only started studying Karate either in '44 or '45 in Seoul.

A couple of things. First you are assuming that Hwang Ki did in fact learn Taekkyon and Soo Bak Ki. This has been disputed as not many people practiced TK and there is no hard evidence of SBK exisiting. His first real learning experience was with a Mst. Yang who taught him Chuan Fa. He also studied with GM Kuk, Won-lee, who, as a side note, gave him permission to use the name TSD, since it was what he came up with first.

Next we have to take into account that there was a split in the MDK family when Hwang Ki decided not to follow the path of the other kwans and join up with the KKW TKD. Many of his seniors split from him and joined the KKW, which is why we have MDK TKD.

TSD was not incorporated into the ITF...ITF was ODK, which as you stated, was also the SK military martial art. ODK is ITF is ODK...pure and simple. When Gen Choi, didn't get his way with the KKW people, he split from the group forming the ITF. The only reason ODK was the "practiced" art in the military was due to Gen. Choi's connections with the Korean President at that time.

Hwang Ki's claims to have studied Chuan Fa in Manchuria are just as much in question as his claims to have studied Taekyon. However, he obviously studied something other than Shotokan from a textbook (one of his other claims), because he was a serious bad ass from all accounts. Alos, every Mudukkwan guy I've ever trained with has been pretty hardcore and technically profficient, and I find it hard to believe that they drew their lineage from some bullshido master.

The whole Taekyon thing may seem suspect, but keep in mind, Okinawan Karate has very few kicks, and Japanese Karate didn't start introducing many kicks until after 1945. So, that leaves the whole question of where TKD kicks (and Japanese Karate kicks) originated from, since they are not a part of the Okinawan curriculum. My best guess is Chinese Chuan Fa, but I don't completely rule out the influence of Taekyon, at least in terms of a cultural bias towards kicking.

Soo Bak Ki + Taekyon => Tang So Do
Tang So Do + Hwang Gi => Soo Bak Do
Hwang Gi + Soo Bak Do + Time => Tang So Do Moo Duk Kwan
Tang So Do Moo Duk Kwan + Time => Modern Moo Duk Kwan
Errant already told you what was wrong with your post, but I'm going to reiterate since you're not listening.

Tang Soo Do is a generic term that was used by several different kwan leaders and instructors immediately post occupation (after 1945). I'm going to assume you're referring to the Moo Duk Kwan.


Soo Bak Ki + Taekyon => Tang So Do
No. TSD Moo Duk Kwan is based mostly on Okinawan karate that Hwang Kee learned out of a book. As Errant stated earlier, he tried his hand with Hwa Soo Do, a conglomeration of the Northern Chuan Fa and Taekkyun that he supposedly learned. It failed. He threw in the karate and renamed it to "Tang Soo Do" at the suggestion of Won Kuk Lee. So the "Soo Bak Ki" part of that is wrong, and the "Taekyon" is only alledged, and can't be really seen in the current system - TEA's explanation of Taekkyun's possible involvement is about the best you can do.


Tang So Do + Hwang Gi => Soo Bak Do
Hwang Kee created Soo Bahk Do after discovering and studying the Muye Dobo Dong Ji, Korea's oldest surviving military classic. It is the Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan that he originally developed plus his interpretation of those written works.


Hwang Gi + Soo Bak Do + Time => Tang So Do Moo Duk Kwan
Tang So Do Moo Duk Kwan + Time => Modern Moo Duk Kwan
This part doesn't make sense. It was called Moo Duk Kwan from the start, that's the name of the physical building that he was teaching out of. It's grown to be sort of a specifier of which TSD, but it's still the name of the first building.

Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan is the current term that describes what the Hwang family and original Moo Duk Kwan is teaching.

Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is the current term that describes what other masters - who have left the original MDK - are teaching, which can actually vary depending on when they left and what their own personal preferences are. Some are very similar to the original MDK, some have dropped the Muye Dobo Dong Ji interpretations completely. Also the MDK part of the term may be in jeopardy due to the original MDK's efforts to keep exclusive rights to the name.

You know, for a martial art that lumps in a bunch of useless **** with the fighting, I would hope that practitioners of TKD would at least be knowledgeable about the extraneous junk, like history. It's bad enough you're forced to memorize historical facts and philosophies of long dead flower boys, but to have that information incorrect just makes the time you spend not learning how to fight only that much more pathetic...

Actually, there is scant evidence that Gen Choi ever went to Japan. I've read a few accounts that he only started studying Karate either in '44 or '45 in Seoul.

One of the "popular" stories, non-verified of course, was that he was a POW over in Japan and studied it while in prison (Note: I don't believe that **** for one minute). The other one which is a bit more substantial is that Choi, studied over in Japan and received a brown belt there. His black belt was given to him from Lee Won-kuk of the Chungdokwan. I believe it was an honorary rank that was given to him, not an official rank.

On another side note about Jhoon Rhee. I mentioned earlier that he was part of Oh Do Kwan, but I was mistaken. Upon looking into it further I believe he was Chungdokwan originally. If you look at his patch that he wears on his uniforms they represent the Chungdokwan emblem. I am still lookng through some notes to find out for sure though.

Gen. Choi was given rank in Cheongdogwan that was later revoked.

Gen. Choi was given rank in Cheongdogwan that was later revoked.

That is correct. GM Lee Won-kuk, revoked his BB. I believe this was due to Gen. Choi misrepresenting himself and his martial art rank. I noticed when looking over Gen. Choi's book that this part of his history was sort of left out. :evil5:

In regards to Jhoon Rhee, he was a member of the Chungdokwan and was the 17th person in that Kwan to receive his black belt. He made his way over to America around the late 50's so this would have prior to any ITF/WTF disputes.

Miguk, I believe Choi was named head of the MDK for a short time. The claim was made in CHoi's autobiography. *cough*

Over Hwang Kee?
No offense to any Choi nutriders, but he seems to have been one of the biggest 'self-inflated' types out there. I do know he did a lot for the name by spreading TKD with the miliary and his ODK, but it's hard to see if any of his actual MA ranks were real now. The 4th we all know was given and then rescinded by CDK's Lee Won Kuk. Now it sounds like his Shotokan background was less than it'd been claimed?