Mark, that is exactly why Hatsumi has such a large following of true believers. You are ignoring all the evidence, and passing off guys like Meik Skoss and Dr Karl Friday who actually do know what they are talking about because they are shattering your seemingly unshakeable faith in "ninjutsu". Soyez, I can understand your position because you are only about the fighting aspect. You are aware of its historically shaky ground, but Mark, dude, it seems to me you are just sticking your head in the sand and pretending none of this happened. If you want to do that, hey it's your life....

Mark, that is exactly why Hatsumi has such a large following of true believers. You are ignoring all the evidence, and passing off guys like Meik Skoss and Dr Karl Friday who actually do know what they are talking about because they are shattering your seemingly unshakeable faith in "ninjutsu". Soyez, I can understand your position because you are only about the fighting aspect. You are aware of its historically shaky ground, but Mark, dude, it seems to me you are just sticking your head in the sand and pretending none of this happened. If you want to do that, hey it's your life....Ok let me get this straight im not Bjj ok. and there is no evidence from them, now show me proof if they did, i dont care to see e-mail nor do i care to just here them talk. That is no evidence
so show me the real stuff.

Mark, that is exactly why Hatsumi has such a large following of true believers. You are ignoring all the evidence, and passing off guys like Meik Skoss and Dr Karl Friday who actually do know what they are talking about because they are shattering your seemingly unshakeable faith in "ninjutsu". Soyez, I can understand your position because you are only about the fighting aspect. You are aware of its historically shaky ground, but Mark, dude, it seems to me you are just sticking your head in the sand and pretending none of this happened. If you want to do that, hey it's your life....

Truthfully - if I wanted to be a martial arts historian, I'd hang with Friday or Skoss. I don't. I personally want to train, and Hatsumi Soke has the game in that area.

Not sure why all the fuss still. Most of us have gotten over the "shaky ground" of our alledged history. That wasn't why many of us stuck with the Bujinkan in the first place.

Interesting rebuttal Mark. I don't even need to cite Meik's or Dr Friday's work (although I will be happy to dig it up later if you like), I can show you all on my own.
For starters, it is HATSUMI who is claiming Togakure ryu is some 750 years old, and that he teaches 9 different ryu. The onus is on HIM, or anyone who supports him to prove this fact. It is not my responsibility as the one asking the question to prove that he is lying.

Now that we have that cleared up, let's begin shall we? These are the facts at hand:

Hatsumi claims that Togakure ryu was founded sometime between 1200-1300AD. FACT
Hatsumi has no scroll or verifiable records as proof of this. FACT

Hatsum claims to teach 9 different ryu in Bujinkan, but he only has proof of 2. FACT

Hatsumi sought to have his ryuha, including Togakure, recognised as koryu. He was dismissed because he did not possess reliable evidence. FACT

This s commonly passed off by Buj forumites, who will assert to anyone that Hatsumi "didn't really try" or that "he invited them and they chose not to come". All such claims are FALSE.

Hatsumi claims that his teacher, Takamatsu, learnt from an individual named Toda. Despite all efforts to the contrary, this man still has not been found to have existed. FACT.

Had these facts been presented about any other typical caucasian "master" such as Frank Dux, he would become an absolute laughing stock. I don't know Hatsumi's fighting abilities nor do I care. Anyone on the internet will tell me how great he is, fine. If he is a great fighter, he should stand on his own merits. This whole silly ninja thing is ridiculous to anyone who has enough brains to examine the facts at hand. Here is a quote from the thread "Don't hate me because I studied Ninjutsu": take it all in and think about it, it's the best advice you could possibly hear, and it's from someone who DID "ninjutsu".

Listen guys,

Like I stated before, I studied Ninjutsu for a couple of years. And we studied pratical stuff. Stuff that I have carried over to Goju (I am a Goju n00b) and Army Combatives, and have carried over very succesfully.

I think I had a better teacher than most of the people that I run into on this forum. Most of the Ninjutsu people I run into on this board appear to be deluded fantasy seekers stuck in the claimed historical past. My sensie never taught us the crap you self proclaimed ninjas are spouting, so I dont know where you get it. Also, it appears that most of the people here who study Ninjutsu have a chip on their shoulders, get over it!

You dont hear the Kung Fu guys bitching about the history of Kung Fu. Do you?
So why are you guys always getting into pissing contests about Ninjutsu?

Damn, shut the f@ck up.

A person who is confidnet in their skills and in themselfs dont need to brag and otherwise try to prove themself or their beliefs. They dont need to because they know in their hearts what and who they they are. Only people who are insecure need to prove things and polish their external image, because their internal image is jacked up.

Like I said, I studied ninjutsu. However I dont need to constantly bring it up all the time like that jerk Ron Collins.

Go ahead, look at my other posts. I am not always acting like some Ninja LARPing ass-monkey.

Why do you guys always have to.

Sh!t.

Interesting rebuttal Mark. I don't even need to cite Meik's or Dr Friday's work (although I will be happy to dig it up later if you like), I can show you all on my own.
For starters, it is HATSUMI who is claiming Togakure ryu is some 750 years old, and that he teaches 9 different ryu. The onus is on HIM, or anyone who supports him to prove this fact. It is not my responsibility as the one asking the question to prove that he is lying.

Now that we have that cleared up, let's begin shall we? These are the facts at hand:

Hatsumi claims that Togakure ryu was founded sometime between 1200-1300AD. FACT
Hatsumi has no scroll or verifiable records as proof of this. FACT

Hatsum claims to teach 9 different ryu in Bujinkan, but he only has proof of 2. FACT

Hatsumi sought to have his ryuha, including Togakure, recognised as koryu. He was dismissed because he did not possess reliable evidence. FACT

This s commonly passed off by Buj forumites, who will assert to anyone that Hatsumi "didn't really try" or that "he invited them and they chose not to come". All such claims are FALSE.

Hatsumi claims that his teacher, Takamatsu, learnt from an individual named Toda. Despite all efforts to the contrary, this man still has not been found to have existed. FACT.

Had these facts been presented about any other typical caucasian "master" such as Frank Dux, he would become an absolute laughing stock. I don't know Hatsumi's fighting abilities nor do I care. Anyone on the internet will tell me how great he is, fine. If he is a great fighter, he should stand on his own merits. This whole silly ninja thing is ridiculous to anyone who has enough brains to examine the facts at hand. Here is a quote from the thread "Don't hate me because I studied Ninjutsu": take it all in and think about it, it's the best advice you could possibly hear, and it's from someone who DID "ninjutsu".

Listen guys,

Like I stated before, I studied Ninjutsu for a couple of years. And we studied pratical stuff. Stuff that I have carried over to Goju (I am a Goju n00b) and Army Combatives, and have carried over very succesfully.

I think I had a better teacher than most of the people that I run into on this forum. Most of the Ninjutsu people I run into on this board appear to be deluded fantasy seekers stuck in the claimed historical past. My sensie never taught us the crap you self proclaimed ninjas are spouting, so I dont know where you get it. Also, it appears that most of the people here who study Ninjutsu have a chip on their shoulders, get over it!

You dont hear the Kung Fu guys bitching about the history of Kung Fu. Do you?
So why are you guys always getting into pissing contests about Ninjutsu?

Damn, shut the f@ck up.

A person who is confidnet in their skills and in themselfs dont need to brag and otherwise try to prove themself or their beliefs. They dont need to because they know in their hearts what and who they they are. Only people who are insecure need to prove things and polish their external image, because their internal image is jacked up.

Like I said, I studied ninjutsu. However I dont need to constantly bring it up all the time like that jerk Ron Collins.

Go ahead, look at my other posts. I am not always acting like some Ninja LARPing ass-monkey.

Why do you guys always have to.

Sh!t.ok that is not all facts by the way, Togakure scroll not sure on that, my brother seen them so that is not fact.and you talk about there is two that are legit no wrong there is 4, and about the koryu , Hatsumi has says he does not wont the scroll to be apart of koryu. And Toda Agreed fact, till the body be found and im sure it will. And keep this in mine the Ninja of that time, did keep things secret from the enemy. well anyways you still have any evidence, to show or what

And i dont mean to be rude ether. I respect what your doing, its in my nature to not to agree. When people say that is not koryu it dosen't mean its not real.

The definition of ninjutsu is not in question here Mark. What is questioned is the claim that "ninjutsu" - especially Togakure ryu, dates back 3/4 of a millenia.
What I just don't understand is what is the penalty people want. The professors of Japan have shown that BBT is not Koryu. What penalty do you all want to extract from this little man in Japan. Can't see any way to put the poor guy in Jail. Can't see any way to cause him to lose students other than those he's lost due to all these terrible Shihans. Last thing I've read is that he's already has made an international exit by ordering all his Japanese teachers to no longer leave Japan and teach in Countries outside of Japan. If you want your 14th Dan, he'll mail it to you. If you all agree that BBT is Bullshido, then what? I'm seeing that the little man hasn't taught pure Ninjutsu for over 20 years to anyone. He's been teaching some type of Gendi forms. All (say it again) ALL of the Bujinkan I've met here in the US of A have long ago dropped the word Ninjutsu. Its the noobs that you're confusing until they get to their next class. Even those knuckleheads at Mythbusters regard Dale as a "Ninja." Can't dispute TV, can you? They will say that they don't study Ninjutsu. So, to them, Bullshido is screaming something they've, Hatsumi's older students, have long since dropped. I really don't think Hatsumi is listening anymore. Got his bank full and he's gone fellows.


Add to that the fact that there is no verifiable proof of 7 out of those 9, and you have Frank Dux material.
Your Honor, I object!!!!!! Leave Frank out of this conversation. He's a good guy :thebirdma :thebirdma . Actually, I'm holding $2.29 in my hand. Fact or Fiction.
The art of subterfuge, deception, invisibility ---- all this and you guys really expect a student of Ninjitsu, like myself, to allow any of you to know the truth? Think on this: Everything I say is a Lie (something I learned from Hatsumi and he's my teacher).

New here, but this Bullshido is kind of fun. Show me an 7-move unarmed technique and I can tell if its Ninjitsu or not. These guys here have more respect for Crocop and he can't fight a lick and you actually pay to see it. Poor little guy Hatsumi, in his old age, would cut Crocop in half - twice (using his Gendi Budo too). Learn to fight better.

I was going to argue with the above post but then I thought, stuff it, he does Dux Ryu Ninjitsu.

I was going to argue with the above post but then I thought, stuff it, he does Dux Ryu Ninjitsu.
Basically, don't you think that year after year, decade after decade, forum after forum with the same theads and opinions gets null and void? After all these years, all this time, all these redundant opinions - GUYS, WE GET IT.

If you're still doing it and still supporting a known fraud, whether conceptually or financially, then clearly you do not get it.

Then change it from "We get it" to "We hear you." (But we do get it) Do you ever get tired of saying the same things over and over - for years!!!!!!? Looks like your techniques are not working. Maybe a change in strategy is warranted. why not start an investigation group and come to some agreement as to what is working and what is not working. Looks like the "frauds" keep winning the lawsuits. The "enemy of my enemy is my friend" just doesn't seem to work anymore. Hatsumi has schools all over the world and it keeps getting larger. If all this takamatsu stuff is making you feel a little taller, good for you. Hope you feel better. Main problem I see is that his organization's structure and philosophies have built-in defenses that you haven't figured out yet.

Then change it from "We get it" to "We hear you." (But we do get it) Do you ever get tired of saying the same things over and over - for years!!!!!!? Looks like your techniques are not working. Maybe a change in strategy is warranted. why not start an investigation group and come to some agreement as to what is working and what is not working. Looks like the "frauds" keep winning the lawsuits. The "enemy of my enemy is my friend" just doesn't seem to work anymore. Hatsumi has schools all over the world and it keeps getting larger. If all this takamatsu stuff is making you feel a little taller, good for you. Hope you feel better. Main problem I see is that his organization's structure and philosophies have built-in defenses that you haven't figured out yet.Hey Is Dux related to Ashida Kim? i've heard they where brothers

Hey Is Dux related to Ashida Kim? i've heard they where brothers

Yeah, butt-brothers.

when i was but a tiny N1nj3r, i looked up Dux ryu on the net, found out all the cool stuff it had, i truly thought i had found t3h aw3s0me and i cursed the world because i lived near no Dux Ryu school... but then i found out the following:
1. Frank Dux is gay
2. The guy who PLAYED frank dux in the movie is gayER
3. I found out Dux Ryu is'nt even a real Ninjutsu art, and i THINK franky didnt even train in anything close to Ninjutsu (plz correct me if im wrong)
4. I hated Ashida Kim which made me hate Frank Dux more.
5. Ive heard from a few sources Dux Ryu is a bit ineffective
6. ANY Ninjutsu by its lonesome is sorta incomplete unless you cross train with something else.
7. i hate frank dux

"I jumped back and said can you believe this mother fucking ****!?"
- Eddie Murphy, Delirious

Pretty much sums it up yeah?

Wow... Dux Ryu sure has a lot to do with Takamatsu...