i heard a story once..forget the art and name of the person...but

there was a grandmaster who had a student that wanted a menkyo kaiden...the grandmaster i guess gave his other 2 students a menkyo kaiden..just not this on guy, so the student tries sneak up and kill the grandmaster, of course the grandmaster throws him or something...then sits down and writes him a menkyo kaiden...

the scrolls are worthless without kuden and actually being taught it.

Well, the thing is that a soke isn't always the best practitioner. He's picked because of birth or administrative ability and might not even have menkyo kaiden-level ability initially.

well i would like to know more about this Tokagure-Ryu, if anyone would help out, finding out the history of it let me know? the only thing i know of it that it's pretty much the same as Gyoko ryu, other then that Takamatsu learned it from Toda.

I wish some people did less posting, and more reading:

Thread on Togakure ryu's history

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57152

Thanks! but where did this research come from is it real or is it made up?

Thanks! but where did this research come from is it real or is it made up?

I wish, if people really did have a command of history, they would write with less childish hyperbole. Paragraph after paragraph describing how the "Ninjers" respond when they hear this and that gets really old, and invalidates what he writes with the suspicion of huge ulterior motives.

But - whatever.

Didn't Hatsumi himself say that Bujinkan was not the traditional style, because the traditional style doesn't make any sense at all in a modern context? So I can't see why anyone would think they were studying traditional ninjitsu anyway.
Since the "style" inevitably didn't stay the same over time, then the only questions are whether he in fact learned from someone that knew a form of ninjitsu, and did he incorporate it into the art. To that respect how would scholars have any way of k nowing if he did? And why should we believe Hatsumi? In other words it seems that unless someone can give an original source saying he is or isn't a ninja, we have no way of knowing. Besides, who cares?
I think people sign up for ninjitsu classes because thay like the idea of sneaking around in the woods and doing parkour with kicks. People that stick with it realize that only sneaking around in the wood and doing parkour will help with those aspects, but they find something useful in the fighting style they are learning anyway. The fact that there are (or aren't) ninjistic roots to Bujinkan really has absolutely no bearing on whether a person should be picking an art. Ninja's weren't really combat specialists anyway.

Hayes teach's Traditional style, if you ask for it.

Didn't Hatsumi himself say that Bujinkan was not the traditional style, because the traditional style doesn't make any sense at all in a modern context? So I can't see why anyone would think they were studying traditional ninjitsu anyway.
Are you referring to Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu (Now called Budo Taijutsu)or Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu. Because BBT is a synthesis of the specific Ryuha so they are a modern creation of Classical arts and Ninpo arts. Now for Togakure Ryu Ninpo there is not much to the actual Ryu ha, supposedly you first had to learn Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu first as they are full fledged Ryu ha but Togakure Ryu was more on unorthodox tactics, sword handling, and the stealthly stuff. The only thing I have heard (And translated) from Soke is that he does not teach things like poison recipes because for most people there is no need to lean them and for people that need to know such things there are better poisons now.

Ninjew can move it to YMAS if he wants.

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

You have a lot of very valid arguments and I enjoy reading your posts, almost always. But...when you respond this way to honest criticism, it's really not much more than what you get so pissed about ninjers doing--sidestepping the issue instead of having a real discussion.

Harboring bitterness is like drinking poison and waiting for the other martial arts to die. You're better'n that, Virus.


A noob from the frickin' hubs,
Kittenbritches

Are you referring to Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu (Now called Budo Taijutsu)or Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu. Because BBT is a synthesis of the specific Ryuha so they are a modern creation of Classical arts and Ninpo arts. Now for Togakure Ryu Ninpo there is not much to the actual Ryu ha, supposedly you first had to learn Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu first as they are full fledged Ryu ha but Togakure Ryu was more on unorthodox tactics, sword handling, and the stealthly stuff. The only thing I have heard (And translated) from Soke is that he does not teach things like poison recipes because for most people there is no need to lean them and for people that need to know such things there are better poisons now.
Well if you are learning only taijitsu (as most people are) your just learning one ryuha and there's not much to be said about that, except that everything invariably changes over time. Bujinkan is 9 ryu fused together and teaches things like how to disarm a gun. So yeah when we talk about Bujinkan Taijutsu we are talking about something which has clearly been changed from its "root" forms, and so is no longer "traditional" ninjutsu. Meaning one would not want to study it for cultural reasons.

Does Hatsumi still teach Togakure Ryu? Does anyone else teach it? When they are learning the 17th level, are they studying traditional Japanese Ninja meteorology or are they learning to use satelites?
How about the 18th with geography? Do they just learn about Japanese geography? What about a Tagokure school in the desert? Same thing?
When they learn the 10th do they just get to learn how to disguise themselves as shinto priests and ronin? Or are they learning how to use modern makeup techniques and disguise themselves as businessmen?

You see what I'm getting at. No one interested in martial arts wants to learn this stuff. People wanting to be modern ninja's would not find most of the things taught in Togakure Ryu very useful. Especially when they can just use it as a syllabis, and go to a library and learn techniques that aren't 800 years old. The only people who would care about traditional Togakure are people who are interested in it for cultural / historical reasons. Learning traditional Togakure is equivalent to learning traditional beer making, or musket shooting.

Learning modern Bujinkan is probably more like learning modern archery. Sure it has a basis in a traditional art, but the conisderations become quite a bit different when your not using it on a battle field, and when you get to use pullies to draw your bow.

I just cant think, of why they would, say Ninjutsu doesn't exist anymore, don't they know what Ninjutsu means, I think not. It sounds like they just don't like the art so they say things like. all things grow and change.

I just cant think, of why they would, say Ninjutsu doesn't exist anymore, don't they know what Ninjutsu means, I think not. It sounds like they just don't like the art so they say things like. all things grow and change.
The definition of ninjutsu is not in question here Mark. What is questioned is the claim that "ninjutsu" - especially Togakure ryu, dates back 3/4 of a millenia. It has nothing to do with people liking or not liking it, when you are going to claim something that bold there had better be some proof. Consider that the oldest extant martial ryu, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu is just over 500 years old. The oldest before that I know of were founded in the 1300's - and those ryu no longer exist. So to assert that you are teaching something even older than that - especially something based on subterfuge, assassination, intelligence and so on is a very big deal.

The problem I find is that people only see what they want to see, especially in the Bujinkan. There are plenty of intelligent people there who seem to train hard in good schools (how common good schools are in the Buj I don't know), but for every one of them there are 50-100 people who have had all their fantasies fulfilled playing ninja. They look up to Hatsumi as some sort of mystical Yoda type figure who is not to be questioned in any negative way. Someone in another forum once said something along the lines of "If Hatsumi flopped it out in the middle of a taikai and took a wizz on the floor, some people say it was Zen because he needed to wizz, so he wizzed. Others would say that he did it to point out the sorry state of affairs in Buj in the other countries, and yet others would say it was a performance of ninja deception, a display of distraction so his partner could effectively infiltrate a castle while the samurai retainers gawked at him".

The funny thing is, with everything I have seen of Buj practitioners on forums, I'd say it's pretty accurate. I would bet my right arm that if Hatsumi came out tomorrow and said it was all made up, half of his defenders would explain it away with something like "oh, he said that because the buj is growing too big and he wants it to stop expanding". The thing abut Hatsumi is that he has such a massive army of true believers that will jump to his defence with nothing better than hearsay, he never even needs to lift a finger or say a word to defend himself. The problem is, none of them have any education in history, so hearsay is always good enough to prove a lineage. For the rest of us, sorry, it isn't enough. Put it this way, if I was looking for a school to train at, and heard about this place that taught not 1 but 9, yes 9 ryu, that one of them was the oldest claimed ryu in existence, alarm bells would be going off in my head on a massive scale. Add to that the fact that there is no verifiable proof of 7 out of those 9, and you have Frank Dux material.

The funny thing is, with everything I have seen of Buj practitioners on forums, I'd say it's pretty accurate. I would bet my right arm that if Hatsumi came out tomorrow and said it was all made up, half of his defenders would explain it away with something like "oh, he said that because the buj is growing too big and he wants it to stop expanding". The thing abut Hatsumi is that he has such a massive army of true believers that will jump to his defence with nothing better than hearsay, he never even needs to lift a finger or say a word to defend himself. The problem is, none of them have any education in history, so hearsay is always good enough to prove a lineage.

mate, that pretty much sums up the '80's ninja boom. But its a massive generalisation. Bujinkan history has being researched to death by many intelligent folks out there.

from personal experience, Hatsumi Sensei never wants his students to treat him as 'god like'. I study it because I want an effective skill base in self defence not for historically reasons. If it works I use it is my approach.

each his own

Intelligent people may have researched it, but they have come up with no evidence of the bujinkan's historical claims about ninjitsu. Especially the 34 generations stuff, which if proven, would be the biggest thing in koryu historical studies ever.

like I said am not smart enough to debate this issue point for point and not trying to fuz the topic here but the most important questions for me include

is this stuff effective? will it work for me ? can I apply it in a confrontation? am I happy with my training?

if the answer is yes, will I stop if I find out its got no historical authenticity?
Have met and trained with Hatsumi many times over the last 15 yrs and got say
he is truly a great martial artist, bit more non traditional in some of his veiws on Budo organisation but I have had no reason to doubt the guy.

sory for leading little off track here but hope you understand want I'm trying to say here.

The definition of ninjutsu is not in question here Mark. What is questioned is the claim that "ninjutsu" - especially Togakure ryu, dates back 3/4 of a millenia. It has nothing to do with people liking or not liking it, when you are going to claim something that bold there had better be some proof. Consider that the oldest extant martial ryu, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu is just over 500 years old. The oldest before that I know of were founded in the 1300's - and those ryu no longer exist. So to assert that you are teaching something even older than that - especially something based on subterfuge, assassination, intelligence and so on is a very big deal.

The problem I find is that people only see what they want to see, especially in the Bujinkan. There are plenty of intelligent people there who seem to train hard in good schools (how common good schools are in the Buj I don't know), but for every one of them there are 50-100 people who have had all their fantasies fulfilled playing ninja. They look up to Hatsumi as some sort of mystical Yoda type figure who is not to be questioned in any negative way. Someone in another forum once said something along the lines of "If Hatsumi flopped it out in the middle of a taikai and took a wizz on the floor, some people say it was Zen because he needed to wizz, so he wizzed. Others would say that he did it to point out the sorry state of affairs in Buj in the other countries, and yet others would say it was a performance of ninja deception, a display of distraction so his partner could effectively infiltrate a castle while the samurai retainers gawked at him".

The funny thing is, with everything I have seen of Buj practitioners on forums, I'd say it's pretty accurate. I would bet my right arm that if Hatsumi came out tomorrow and said it was all made up, half of his defenders would explain it away with something like "oh, he said that because the buj is growing too big and he wants it to stop expanding". The thing abut Hatsumi is that he has such a massive army of true believers that will jump to his defence with nothing better than hearsay, he never even needs to lift a finger or say a word to defend himself. The problem is, none of them have any education in history, so hearsay is always good enough to prove a lineage. For the rest of us, sorry, it isn't enough. Put it this way, if I was looking for a school to train at, and heard about this place that taught not 1 but 9, yes 9 ryu, that one of them was the oldest claimed ryu in existence, alarm bells would be going off in my head on a massive scale. Add to that the fact that there is no verifiable proof of 7 out of those 9, and you have Frank Dux material."The problem is, except for a handful of koryu, where it's a part of a larger comprehensive curriculum, ninjutsu just doesn't exist anymore. thats what im responding to from that mail ive seen i dont give a crap about the 1300's thing, if it is then so be it, but you never know and we may never know. Anyways i dont realy care for the koryu they only know what the Samuri did, they dont even care for the ninja anyways, and i herd that from them my self