Ok, as you can see I've decided to let the Wiki entry take care of most of the details about the organizations and history. I looked over the page and couldn't see anything really wrong with the information there. And the purpose of the article isn't so much to inform about what TKD is as to let you know what TKD SCHOOLS will be like.

Now, I need people who are going to say "TKD isn't like this at my school/country/continent/planet/galaxy!" to write me a paragraph that shows how your TKD differs from that described in the article. You must give me AT LEAST one school name in the area that is representative of your Taekwondo.

Thanks for the help guys. Hopefully this will end up being a useful and informative article for everyone and serve to show people what they will and won't get from TKD in various areas.

The Wikipedia article is a pile of steaming ****, IIRC.

One thing about the snappy kicks though: if your foot is tight (as it should be anyway), your knee shouldn't end up taking much shock at all. Plus there are plenty of TKD practitioners in their 40s, 50s, etc... the master at my school (in his late 40s) has been training since he was 13 and his knees are fine. You should make it a bit clearer that this is not always the case.

Unfortunately your article does describe the "typical stripmall TKD" in the US. Of course, there are a number of schools that do do it differently, so you should be more explicit about this fact. Better yet, stick a disclaimer at the top in big red letters: "THIS DESCRIBES THE TYPICAL AMERICAN TAEKWONDO SCHOOL. VARIOUS PARTS OF THIS ARTICLE MAY OR MAY NOT PERTAIN TO DIFFERENT SCHOOLS."

Kwoww: You are not constructive. Please tell me what is wrong with the Wiki article. I frankly don't give a **** about the history of TKD. I'm more concerned with the future of it. So if you have an issue with the Wiki article please feel free to write me up a paragraph or two of history to go with this article.

Also, the article is an attempt to describe what someone looking for a TKD school is MOST LIKELY to encounter. If you don't believe that these points outline what you are most likely to run into then you need to get out more.

Also, enough TKD practitioners I know of in their late 30s and early 40s have had knee surgery to convince me that it is greater than average. I CLEARLY addressed this already by saying that many schools don't acknowledge it or talk about how to prevent it. That indicates that some schools do and that if people want to take TKD they should keep their knees in mind and ask about it. I'm glad your school has made sure to show you how not to blow your knees. Congratualtiosn. Now write me a paragraph about your school including the name and location (at least country and city) and I'll include it at the bottom of the article as a better than average TKD school.

I've also seen/heard a lot of knee injuries. It's practically the only thing Judo and TKD have in common, rampant knee problems.

Kwoww: You are not constructive. Please tell me what is wrong with the Wiki article. I frankly don't give a **** about the history of TKD. I'm more concerned with the future of it. So if you have an issue with the Wiki article please feel free to write me up a paragraph or two of history to go with this article.

Also, the article is an attempt to describe what someone looking for a TKD school is MOST LIKELY to encounter. If you don't believe that these points outline what you are most likely to run into then you need to get out more.

Also, enough TKD practitioners I know of in their late 30s and early 40s have had knee surgery to convince me that it is greater than average. I CLEARLY addressed this already by saying that many schools don't acknowledge it or talk about how to prevent it. That indicates that some schools do and that if people want to take TKD they should keep their knees in mind and ask about it. I'm glad your school has made sure to show you how not to blow your knees. Congratualtiosn. Now write me a paragraph about your school including the name and location (at least country and city) and I'll include it at the bottom of the article as a better than average TKD school.

Chill out kthx.

You said you put the Wiki article in because people might want to know the history of TKD. In fact, knowing the history of a martial art is a great way to understand it in its modern form. Maybe I sounded harsh by saying "****," which is admittedly a bit strong for the situation, but I'm sure there are plenty of articles out there on the history of Taekwondo that are much better and far more accurate than the Wiki one. Also note that "IIRC" means "if I recall." In other words I'm not even sure. Regardless, I'll be happy to try and locate one or even write one up myself if you really do want the input.

I also recommend that you go back and reread my post. I'm going to quote myself for your benefit.

Unfortunately your article does describe the "typical stripmall TKD" in the US. Of course, there are a number of schools that do do it differently, so you should be more explicit about this fact. Better yet, stick a disclaimer at the top in big red letters: "THIS DESCRIBES THE TYPICAL AMERICAN TAEKWONDO SCHOOL. VARIOUS PARTS OF THIS ARTICLE MAY OR MAY NOT PERTAIN TO DIFFERENT SCHOOLS."
Maybe I don't need to get out more after all. Maybe I'm just trying to offer a suggestion that would reduce the likelihood of another "lemme dissect the text of the OP so that I can disagree with each individual point because my TKD is t3h r34l and yours isnt" person.

About the knee thing... okay, maybe I was excercising my "i hav t3h r34l TKD" muscles. I'll give you that. IMHO, it would have been easier to just think "oh well let him say his opinion" instead of arguing the point, but, y'know...

You said you put the Wiki article in because people might want to know the history of TKD. In fact, knowing the history of a martial art is a great way to understand it in its modern form. Maybe I sounded harsh by saying "****," which is admittedly a bit strong for the situation, but I'm sure there are plenty of articles out there on the history of Taekwondo that are much better and far more accurate than the Wiki one.
I had a glimpse at the wiki article and I dont think it fits what you want. As a) it seems to have a WTF biased, b) the pictures on it look a bit, er, rubbish, c) it can be changed at whim (and frequently has done I understand).

Suggestion.. why not have a section titled: "A brief history of..." then you can include all the big orgs, how they came about, what they do, what is the norm in clubs under these orgs etc. This can be added to if later on you feel something is missing (Like the American Karate thing!). Put them in chronological order perhaps!



Maybe I don't need to get out more after all. Maybe I'm just trying to offer a suggestion that would reduce the likelihood of another "lemme dissect the text of the OP so that I can disagree with each individual point because my TKD is t3h r34l and yours isnt" person.
My dissection was simply to show that most of the points arnt valid across the board. I read it thinking.. eh! not here! and then thinking of other TKD people here feeling the same!

Stuart

The ITF world cup was one of the most disogranized tournaments I've been to.
So who ran this? You say US ITF (is that USTF) but a quick search on google for "ITF World Cup" said one was run in Spain (2006)!!! Either way, no tournament is really an indication of hwo schools train, though it does sound like you had a rough time being lumped in with someone way out you weight class. (I fought a guy 30KG heavier than me once, and though he wasnt lightening fast.. it was dam tough due simply to the sheer size difference)


Stuart

I understand somebody wanted some constructive criticism of the WIKIPEDIA article and in that spirit I offer the following comments for your consideration.

a.) TAEKWONDO is not an art that originated in Korea. There has never been a historical art called TAEKWONDO in Korea. The historical basis for TAEKWONDO is in the practice of Japanese Karate including both SHOTOKAN and SHUDOKAN in Korean during the Occupation as well as from returning Korean ex-pats after the war. The military dictatorships of the post-WW II era in Korea chose to continue the conditioning programs of the Occupation and chose to continue to use the Japanese Karate material albeit renamed and repackaged for consumption by a Japanese-averse population.

b.) It is of no use to invoke the HwaRang warrior so as to substantiate the existence of TAEKWONDO and the reason falls into essentially three areas. The first is that the very nature of the HWARANG has never been irrefutably determined. To date most sources who characterize the HWARANG as a kind of "Westpoint" for the Silla kingdom have been modern hobbyists with a vested interest in a decidedly militant view of this group. Secondly, we have no documentation that the HWARANG practiced military training, and the few allusions to such training cast no light on the actual nature of what that training might have been. Thirdly, the nature of ANY military training prior to the YUAN Dynasty and decimation of Korea by the Mongols has been lost and the single remaining source of that period, SAMKUK YUSA, is less than forthcoming with details having been written in the 14th century, some 7 to 8 hundred years after the fact.

3.) The relationship of TAEKWONDO with the Korean street game of TAEK KYON may, in fact exist, but most probably only through the venue of organized crime. Those tumultuous years following the Second WW, through the Occupation and into the military dictatorships of the 60-s provided an opportunity of MA development that was long on practice and short on accountability. Unfortunately one cannot discuss the development of TKD without opening some very tender and unhealed areas of the Korean psyche'. However, to not recognize this festering sore relegates the world community to living on inaccurate oral traditons such as I have found in the WIKIPEDIA article. FWIW.

Best Wishes,
Bruce

So who ran this? You say US ITF (is that USTF) but a quick search on google for "ITF World Cup" said one was run in Spain (2006)!!! Either way, no tournament is really an indication of hwo schools train, though it does sound like you had a rough time being lumped in with someone way out you weight class. (I fought a guy 30KG heavier than me once, and though he wasnt lightening fast.. it was dam tough due simply to the sheer size difference)


Stuart

Apparently the ITF split into 2 different orgs in 2002 or 2003. ITF Korea and ITF USA are now pretty much completely seperate. The 2004 World Cup was held in Orlando by ITF USA. It was apparently their first major tournament and they had NO IDEA what they were doing. This link has the info about it http://www.itfeurope.org/NL2004-04-27.html.
The guy I fought was Oleg TERASKIN. I'm #142 on the competitor list there.

Hrm. I guesst I just skipped down to the part that begins in 1955 with General Choi's unification efforts and the birth of modern Taekwondo. I'll do some more work on it tonight, see if I can yank out the parts of the wiki article that aren't retarded and put them in as an excerpt.

Apparently the ITF split into 2 different orgs in 2002 or 2003. ITF Korea and ITF USA are now pretty much completely seperate. The 2004 World Cup was held in Orlando by ITF USA. It was apparently their first major tournament and they had NO IDEA what they were doing. This link has the info about it http://www.itfeurope.org/NL2004-04-27.html.
The guy I fought was Oleg TERASKIN. I'm #142 on the competitor list there.

Well they actually split into 3, none with there HQ in the US (hence my confusion). They are known as ITF-C (Canada), ITF-NK (Ch'ang Un - cant remember where they are based, but its not NK) and ITF-V (Vienna).

The biggest part of the ITF scene in the US (Chuck Serriff) left when the splits occured.. hence now just a small US contingent of ITF groups/schools.

Anyway, looking at the site, the AETF is connected to ITF-NK (I think!). Looking at the competitors list there was 200+ competitors and though this may say "World" in the title, that doesnt seem much for a World event Im afraid (Were they all BB or a mix of kup grades as well?) Im at a tournament on Sunday that has more entries than that - no offence to you btw! We went to a World Champs in 2000 that reportedily had 2000 competitors.. still, this is off topic.

Anyway, heres a history bit you may want to review and utilize: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/SECTION2_History.html

Stuart

The contact level was about what I expect from most good ITF schools.

Oh, how I wish I had trained at a good ITF school.

Well they actually split into 3, none with there HQ in the US (hence my confusion). They are known as ITF-C (Canada), ITF-NK (Ch'ang Un - cant remember where they are based, but its not NK) and ITF-V (Vienna).

The biggest part of the ITF scene in the US (Chuck Serriff) left when the splits occured.. hence now just a small US contingent of ITF groups/schools.

Anyway, looking at the site, the AETF is connected to ITF-NK (I think!). Looking at the competitors list there was 200+ competitors and though this may say "World" in the title, that doesnt seem much for a World event Im afraid (Were they all BB or a mix of kup grades as well?) Im at a tournament on Sunday that has more entries than that - no offence to you btw! We went to a World Champs in 2000 that reportedily had 2000 competitors.. still, this is off topic.

Anyway, heres a history bit you may want to review and utilize: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/SECTION2_History.html

Stuart

There were a crap ton of colored belts also. At the time there seemed to be some confusion as to who was running the event. My contact for it was from ITF Canada, but the judges I spoke to there kept referring to the organization as ITF USA, though some said ITF North America. As you can see, it was INCREDIBLY disorganized. I think it qualifies as a "World" event considering the number of countries I saw represented. Though the Koreans were conspicuously abset.

Ok, Just made another edit. I think I'm fairly clear about where the direct experience for the article comes from. Give me my next round of criticism and let me know if you think I haven't fixed something satisfactorily.
Again if your ONLY criticism is "My school doesn't do it that way" then I want you to write a paragraph about how your school differs from those described in the article as well as the name of the school and the city/country it's located in. If you aren't willing to give me that and you don't have any real criticism then I don't want to hear it.

There were a crap ton of colored belts also. At the time there seemed to be some confusion as to who was running the event. My contact for it was from ITF Canada, but the judges I spoke to there kept referring to the organization as ITF USA, though some said ITF North America. As you can see, it was INCREDIBLY disorganized. I think it qualifies as a "World" event considering the number of countries I saw represented. Though the Koreans were conspicuously abset.
Yup, having other countries there gives the excuse for using "Worlds" in the title, but the connatations & reality are a bit different. If it was 200+ BB's then fine, but with lots of Coloured belts.. well.. anyway, perhaps just a selling point! Who knows, but as long as you learnt something.. then who cares!

Koreans are always absent from ITF events.. most Koreans AFAIK practice WTF.. though I have a couple of South Koreans teaining at my school at the moment, though they are not the norm.

Stuart

Oh, how I wish I had trained at a good ITF school.

Where did you train when you did TKD Matt? You sound like a no nonsense type of guy and I find it hard to believe you would have gone to a McDojang!!

Stuart