Now this “discussion” began on two man forms within a CMA. Before I even began training more with Sanshou and Submission Wrestling, I was fully aware of how ineffective two-man forms may be. Really, other than for choreographing to impress an audience, I’ve never seen much use for them.

I’ve already given two examples here [in the discussion], but maybe I’m missing something (or banging my head against a wall, possibly).
What’s you guys/gals take on it?



http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1097349#post1097349

When I work on my guard passing and defending the arm bar. There are several steps involved.

Am I working a short two man form because my partner is initiating an attack on me that I am defending?

What are your definitions for this.

I think two main drills are helpful. I don't quite see them as any different then say a two man drill where one man holds a focus mitt and the other works on various punches or strikes. I think they have there place.

Oh I understand two man DRILLS. But what they’re describing aren’t drills, they’re two man FORMS (which are unfortunately fairly common in CMAs). I was going through that difference with them, gave video examples (pg.2), yet they continue to describe what they’re doing as a drill. When what seems to really being done is an elongated form or choreography.

Somewhere down the line they tried to change the definition from two-man forms or “sparring” forms (WTF?!!) into two man drills.
Does anyone here see the bullshit, or am I buggin’ out?

you can drill anything.

Without reading another MAP thread of kata-strophy. I would venture to say that I am not more bothered by two man forms then by one man forms.

There are a lot of two man forms in Jiu-Jitsu and Judo and Japanese MA in general. Just as there are a bunch in CMA.

The stupid forms competitions we see today with music etc, are no more fight oriented then a gymnastics competition. But so long as they dont tell you that it makes them teh d3adly street fighter, then its not inherintly evil.

However, if someone claims that a musical kata, or two man form makes them a super fighter, then call them on it.

I dont have a giant use for kata myself, but those who practice TMA seem to.

Two man sets CAN be useful.

I used to practice two 2 man striking sets of Han Bai Kung Fu, I did it because they were in the curiculum but I did not find them very beneficial. I have also done a staff 2 man set of Han Bai and I felt that one was useful, more useful that the one man staff form.

Definitely by far the most useful 2 man set I have practised is the Nage No Kata of Kodokan Judo. Yes, it is not "alive", there's no resistance and the strikes are poor, BUT it is a great exercise in the mechanics of the throws. All the throws (may be with the exception of uki otoshi, the first one) are competitive throws that have been performed thousands of times in competitions. I'd consider it a "drill".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7hDH_KHf9o

Tomas

Without reading another MAP thread of kata-strophy. I would venture to say that I am not more bothered by two man forms then by one man forms.

There are a lot of two man forms in Jiu-Jitsu and Judo and Japanese MA in general. Just as there are a bunch in CMA.

The stupid forms competitions we see today with music etc, are no more fight oriented then a gymnastics competition. But so long as they dont tell you that it makes them teh d3adly street fighter, then its not inherintly evil.

However, if someone claims that a musical kata, or two man form makes them a super fighter, then call them on it.

I dont have a giant use for kata myself, but those who practice TMA seem to.
This herein is the problem.
The claim is that somehow two man forms will help hone your fighting skill or will somehow make you a good fighter.

Here lies the bullshit, people.

THIS is a two man form that they're speaking of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0T9XmHAn94

I think it's just a play on words. Like I mentioned earlier even when boxing you may train specific combinations while, your partner may duck or parry without launching a menacing attack.. I think this is similar to training specific CMA moves in two man sparring, forms or drills. How each school may train these sets maybe a better question. When I trained in Shaolin Kung Fu our two man drills where to build forearm strength and to condition. When I trained In Hung Gar it was slightly a different approach. We used the two man drills to condition reflexes, perfect certain strikes and foot structures. So, it's all a matter of what the instrutor is trying to have the students gain when doing these Drill, Forms or Sparring sets.

I think it's just a play on words. Like I mentioned earlier even when boxing you may train specific combinations while, your partner may duck or parry without launching a menacing attack.. I think this is similar to training specific CMA moves in two man sparring, forms or drills. How each school may train these sets maybe a better question. When I trained in Shaolin Kung Fu our two man drills where to build forearm strength and to condition. When I trained In Hung Gar it was slightly a different approach. We used the two man drills to condition reflexes, perfect certain strikes and foot structures. So, it's all a matter of what the instrutor is trying to have the students gain when doing these Drill, Forms or Sparring sets.
See, that’s what the delimma seemed to be. I was making sure that the subject of sets or drills weren’t into play. I’ve been to plenty of MA schools were two man sets were used to refine skills. But by their description, an entire sparring FORM was described (which I’ve seen alotta’ times).



Much more than a short, randomized or even repeated drill.

Ew, me a killing moon are going to have a field day with this one.

Two years ago I tried an experiment. I seperated all my groups (kickboxing, SAMBO, and Kung-fu) into two different learning groups. One would learn by pure modern orthodox practice and live sparring and the other would learn via two man sets.

We found better results from the guys doing the two man sets (yes choreographed fighting). As soon as we took the group that learned modern orthodox method and taught them the sets their game improved dramatically. Sorry dude, but two man sets are an excellent drill for teaching and learning.

This herein is the problem.
The claim is that somehow two man forms will help hone your fighting skill or will somehow make you a good fighter.

Here lies the bullshit, people.

THIS is a two man form that they're speaking of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0T9XmHAn94Hung Gar is a TMA, that form is part of the style. It doesnt look terribly combat effective to me, but I dont do Hung Gar.

Ew, me a killing moon are going to have a field day with this one.

Two years ago I tried an experiment. I seperated all my groups (kickboxing, SAMBO, and Kung-fu) into two different learning groups. One would learn by pure modern orthodox practice and live sparring and the other would learn via two man sets.

We found better results from the guys doing the two man sets (yes choreographed fighting). As soon as we took the group that learned modern orthodox method and taught them the sets their game improved dramatically. Sorry dude, but two man sets are an excellent drill for teaching and learning.Okay fellas I asked for this to be moved here so we can keep it on topic.

I agree with Omega. If the Two Man sets are done correctly, drilled with hard contact, and good speed they are a helpful TOOL.

Now, if you are using them to replace sparring and other training they suck.

Ew, me a killing moon are going to have a field day with this one.

Two years ago I tried an experiment. I seperated all my groups (kickboxing, SAMBO, and Kung-fu) into two different learning groups. One would learn by pure modern orthodox practice and live sparring and the other would learn via two man sets.

We found better results from the guys doing the two man sets (yes choreographed fighting). As soon as we took the group that learned modern orthodox method and taught them the sets their game improved dramatically. Sorry dude, but two man sets are an excellent drill for teaching and learning.
Okay, but are these "sets" that you're speaking of as extensive as the forms shown within the video?

Okay first thing you need to do is lay out your description here. I read that thread and it actually isn't horrible.

You are trying to force your definition on people while not accepting their opinion.

Okay, in order to clarify what from what, I’ve described “forms” as what everyone already knows them as…katas (in Japanese, of course). Such as White Crane Form, or Lohan Form; I try not to use the word “set” for forms because it tends to blur the lines and ends up creating BS through the semantic confusion.

Obviously we know what drills are. A concentrated set of movements in order to develop a skill. Like a push up drill, a pad drill (for accuracy, rhythm and or defense) or even a sprinting drill. But from everyone’s experience (or from mine), “drills” are usually much shorter as they’re concentrating on a very specific technique/skill of some sort.

Forms are choreographed movements imitating the scenario of a fight. Obviously some forms may contain smaller methods that can be broken up into drills or were drills at one time. But the form is obviously much longer in comparison and eventually changes from a drill and into a choreographed demonstration (especially with two people).


Gaaargh, I hope I’m not talking in circles here.
Does anyone get what I’m saying here?