Yeah, but not for nuthin', I seem to get the same answers from similar parties respectively (with the exception of maybe ONE individual).

So just to make sure that I wasn't flipping out completely. I asked my boxing partner the same question. He's been involved with the training for awhile, along with his Pops. Right now he's my drill instructor:

[03:51 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: lol
[03:51 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: question:
[03:52 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: in boxing, have you ever seen Forms?
[03:52 PM 02/21/2007] fasbuck: no
[03:52 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: but they DO have drills, right?
[03:53 PM 02/21/2007] fasbuck: yeah
[03:54 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: so....would you say that "drills" and "forms" are relatively the same thing?
[03:54 PM 02/21/2007] fasbuck: well yes and no
[03:54 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: "yes and no"? whatchu mean?
[03:55 PM 02/21/2007] fasbuck: well forms are structured drills can chnage on the fly
[03:55 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: THANK-FUCKING-YOU
[03:55 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: that's EXACTLY what I said
[03:55 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: why am i having an argument on two forums that are debating me on this. As if this is MY definition of forms and drills or somethin?
[03:56 PM 02/21/2007] fasbuck: well al i can say is that the evidence is documented
[03:57 PM 02/21/2007] fasbuck: cause there are vids online demonstrating your point
[03:57 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: yeesh...well at least i know i'm not crazy
[03:57 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: exactly, and I showed them vids too.
[03:57 PM 02/21/2007] fasbuck: wait are these kung fu guys ur argueing with
[03:58 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: :-x
[03:58 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: uh....most are.... :-z
[03:58 PM 02/21/2007] fasbuck: i knew it
[03:58 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: blar
[03:59 PM 02/21/2007] fasbuck: dude we've been through this they're gonna have to get their asses kicked before they change
[03:59 PM 02/21/2007] KamhouX: yep
[03:59 PM 02/21/2007] fasbuck: probably by a boxer

BTW, my argument wasn't leading up to "sport methods are better". It was basically that Alive methods are proven, sport or not.

:new_micro :toothy4:
Okey Dokey...here we go.........
Yeah, but not for nuthin', I seem to get the same answers from similar parties respectively (with the exception of maybe ONE individual).

So just to make sure that I wasn't flipping out completely. I asked my boxing partner the same question. He's been involved with the training for awhile, along with his Pops. Right now he's my drill instructorYes, you are flipping out.

Why? I don't see where you ever said
well forms are structured drills can chnage on the fly

What I do remember is a bunch of posts making sure to seperate forms from drills.
Here let me show you:

Oh I understand two man DRILLS. But what they’re describing aren’t drills, they’re two man FORMS (which are unfortunately fairly common in CMAs). I was going through that difference with them, gave video examples (pg.2), yet they continue to describe what they’re doing as a drill. When what seems to really being done is an elongated form or choreography.

Somewhere down the line they tried to change the definition from two-man forms or “sparring” forms (WTF?!!) into two man drills.
Does anyone here see the bullshit, or am I buggin’ out?


Okay, in order to clarify what from what, I’ve described “forms” as what everyone already knows them as…katas (in Japanese, of course). Such as White Crane Form, or Lohan Form; I try not to use the word “set” for forms because it tends to blur the lines and ends up creating BS through the semantic confusion.

Obviously we know what drills are. A concentrated set of movements in order to develop a skill. Like a push up drill, a pad drill (for accuracy, rhythm and or defense) or even a sprinting drill. But from everyone’s experience (or from mine), “drills” are usually much shorter as they’re concentrating on a very specific technique/skill of some sort.

Forms are choreographed movements imitating the scenario of a fight. Obviously some forms may contain smaller methods that can be broken up into drills or were drills at one time. But the form is obviously much longer in comparison and eventually changes from a drill and into a choreographed demonstration (especially with two people).

See this is you making a counter argument from what your friend/coach said.


You completely separate forms from drills. This is the exact opposite of what your coach and I said.

See here is your coach:
fasbuck: well forms are structured drills can chnage on the fly
fasbuck: dude we've been through this they're gonna have to get their asses kicked before they change


Here is what I said in the end
Now, you are trying to get a MMA=CMA training response out of me and you won't.

Are there similarities? Yes.

Does that mean they are equal and should be judged the same? No.

Wow sounds like me and your coach on the same page not you.

Actually, while I personally agree with your points, I think you got his coach wrong, Is it fake?...

This:

fasbuck: well forms are structured drills can chnage on the fly

Is not his coach agreeing with us, it's just another example of how punctuation (or the lack of it) can completely change the meaning of a sentence.

It should probably have read like this:

fasbuck: Well; forms are structured, drills can change on the fly.

:new_micro :toothy4:
Okey Dokey...here we go.........Yes, you are flipping out.

Why? I don't see where you ever said

What I do remember is a bunch of posts making sure to seperate forms from drills.
Here let me show you:




See this is you making a counter argument from what your friend/coach said.


You completely separate forms from drills. This is the exact opposite of what your coach and I said.

See here is your coach:

Here is what I said in the end

Wow sounds like me and your coach on the same page not you.

Hmmn, lessee. I'm hoping back n' forth from threads, so maybe a lil' confusion is being added here (by me, no less).

I distinctly remember saying that Forms don't change. They're regurgitated patterns and don't provide any variation, especially in 2 man Forms. I find some usefulness within Forms (less than I used to though), but for 2 man Forms, not much if any.

Now if I said it on here or on the other forum may be the confusing part. But I do remember saying it...so "no", I didn't change my point when speaking to him.

Sorry.

Actually, while I personally agree with your points, I think you got his coach wrong, Is it fake?...

This:


Is not his coach agreeing with us, it's just another example of how punctuation (or the lack of it) can completely change the meaning of a sentence.

It should probably have read like this:

Thank you.
Didn't wanna edit it, but that's my fault.

Hmmn, lessee. I'm hoping back n' forth from threads, so maybe a lil' confusion is being added here (by me, no less).

I distinctly remember saying that Forms don't change. They're regurgitated patterns and don't provide any variation, especially in 2 man Forms. I find some usefulness within Forms (less than I used to though), but for 2 man Forms, not much if any.

Now if I said it on here or on the other forum may be the confusing part. But I do remember saying it...so "no", I didn't change my point when speaking to him.

Sorry.Well the quotes are from what you posted here. I don't like Map so I read only to try and get your point.

Which, is why asked for more explanation here.

well forms are structured, drills can chnage on the flyUhmmm forms do the same thing unless, you are doing wushu.

And as I said, two men forms are practiced with aliveness (at least, in non-crap schools).

Drills changing on the fly? I don't think anyone, be it one of my sihings or a boxer or whatever, would enjoy me kicking them in the face during a punching drill.

The techniques in a drill don't change, the power, speed, timing, angles and distance do. If you can just switch and use any technique in a "drill", then you're not drilling; you're doing limited sparring or one-step sparring or whatever. Drilling is, by it's very definition (Merriam-Webster: 1 a : to fix something in the mind or habit pattern of by repetitive instruction), REPEATING. Repeating as in not doing other stuff along the way, but sticking with the same technique.

Yeah, they do. Boxing drills change on the fly all the time.

For instance, if I’m mitt training a Jab-Cross-Hook, the pattern goes into doing it about 4-6 times. But soon a few variations will come into play (sometimes verbally called out by the trainer to switch), like change to Hook-Uppercut. Now the next time I Jab-Cross-Hook, he’ll swipe at me to defend, so now it’s a Jab-Cross-Block-Hook or Jab-Leg Kick Guard-Cross-Hook or Jab-Cross-Hook-Sprawl. Then the tempo will be changed to really fast, or just really hard. But it happens on the fly, much like getting used to a fight.

One training area I visit has about 4 Boxing mitt variations, then throws in defenses randomly (roll/bob/weave, sprawl, throw). Sometimes one variation’s repeated, other times it may be rarely used and tossed in once to keep you on your toes. Constant footwork is also into play here and we barely, if ever remain static.

The variations happen all the time, my friend. This isn’t new.
But THAT’S a drill.

I can't help but notice how the only real argument in this thread is not about what constitutes good training, but about word definitions, exactly like almost every argument I've seen you get in either here on on MAP, Shen.

Everyone here agrees that alive training is better, right? And everyone here training two-man forms says that what they call two-man forms, they train alive.

The long form you linked to, was probably first trained in repetitively small pieces, about as long as a drill, with resistance, intent and varying timing. By the definitions of drill and aliveness, this IS an alive drill.

The longer, stringed together form is not a drill indeed, but it references what has been previously trained as a drill, mainly as way not to let the technique be deformed though lack of use or through repeating situations in sparring.


The variations happen all the time, my friend. This isn’t new.
But THAT’S a drill.Variation in technique? But you just said the INSTRUCTOR says what technique to use. That's CHOREGRAPHED. You are TOLD what technique to use and the other guy is TOLD what technique to defend with.

Uhmmm forms do the same thing unless, you are doing wushu.

I’ll have to call bullshit on that one.

It’s fairly common knowledge that martial art’s forms DON’T change. Being Japanese or Chinese in origin (for examp.), they all have a set number of Forms and movements within each. Very rarely do they change and this is the biggest criticism with them.

The same Forms of Hung Gar practiced in Hong Kong 40yrs. ago are very much the same now (MAYBE with a little changes here n’ there from being passed down, but they don’t happen on the fly). At most, there are more Forms added to the overall Fist.

Yeah, they do. Boxing drills change on the fly all the time.

For instance, if I’m mitt training a Jab-Cross-Hook, the pattern goes into doing it about 4-6 times. But soon a few variations will come into play (sometimes verbally called out by the trainer to switch), like change to Hook-Uppercut. Now the next time I Jab-Cross-Hook, he’ll swipe at me to defend, so now it’s a Jab-Cross-Block-Hook or Jab-Leg Kick Guard-Cross-Hook or Jab-Cross-Hook-Sprawl. Then the tempo will be changed to really fast, or just really hard. But it happens on the fly, much like getting used to a fight.

One training area I visit has about 4 Boxing mitt variations, then throws in defenses randomly (roll/bob/weave, sprawl, throw). Sometimes one variation’s repeated, other times it may be rarely used and tossed in once to keep you on your toes. Constant footwork is also into play here and we barely, if ever remain static.

The variations happen all the time, my friend. This isn’t new.
But THAT’S a drill.
You really did do wushu?

See you keep trying to reconcile kung fu forms with kung fu movies.
I know of a teacher in Salt lake that teaches like this. He does TKD.
I used to do this with forms mixed in.
Omega and Sifu Jason apparently do this as well.

So, do we need to start another thread?

You have now introduced your third topic.
1) 2-Man forms aren't drills.
2) Aliveness is better than forms.
3) Are MMA drills=to Forms.

The obvious thing you keep denying is you want to say MMA has better training methods than 2-man sets. Well, fucking say that.

Then we can debate why and all the other disagreements.

When you jump around from topic to topic, it is easy to say "see I told you my definitions were right." Yet, as quoted earlier, you have never said any of that here.

No, I'm not jumping back and forth, to another board, to figure out what you are talking about.

I’ll have to call bullshit on that one.

It’s fairly common knowledge that martial art’s forms DON’T change. Being Japanese or Chinese in origin (for examp.), they all have a set number of Forms and movements within each. Very rarely do they change and this is the biggest criticism with them.

The same Forms of Hung Gar practiced in Hong Kong 40yrs. ago are very much the same now (MAYBE with a little changes here n’ there from being passed down, but they don’t happen on the fly). At most, there are more Forms added to the overall Fist.
Really, then why do we have one source for most styles and one million variations of said styles?


You really need to get out more.

I'm calling bullshit on your 13 years of KF experience unless it was insular.

The same Forms of Hung Gar practiced in Hong Kong 40yrs. ago are very much the same now (MAYBE with a little changes here n’ there from being passed down, but they don’t happen on the fly). At most, there are more Forms added to the overall Fist.My teacher's training syllabus is not exactly the same as his teacher'.

There are many examples of CMA varying. Think about the constant bickering about how techniques are executed that is prevalent in Wing Chun and Lau Gar (read the MAP Kung Fu section for examples of this). Different lineage, different execution of techniques.

The Fujian White Crane system was invented by a woman, which has passed her art to four students. Each of these four students originated a different "branch" of White Crane; Flying Crane, Eating Crane, Sleeping Crane, Calling Crane. This didn't happen because the four got together and decided they would each teach only a limited subset. They just, on their own, emphasised different parts of the training, and that changed the way the art is practiced.

You really did do wushu?
Okay, now you’re confusing me. WTF are you talking about? How does describing a mitt drill have any correlation whatsoever to Contemporary Wushu? I certainly don’t do it, never have, never had the desire to and NEVER will.


See you keep trying to reconcile kung fu forms with kung fu movies.
Uh…two-man Forms, yes, because they’re choreographed fights, not real fights. No matter how hard you bang toward his predetermined block, it’ll always be the same. It isn’t changed on the fly, it remains in a pattern and HAS to be done in perfect form…much like choreography.

See the relation? It’s pretty easy.


You have now introduced your third topic.
1) 2-Man forms aren't drills.
2) Aliveness is better than forms.
3) Are MMA drills=to Forms.
Dear God…


The obvious thing you keep denying is you want to say MMA has better training methods than 2-man sets. Well, fucking say that.
I described a boxing drill…that’s in my Sanshou curriculum.
But sure it’s also in MMA.
And Boxing singularly.
And Muay Thai singularly.
And Kickboxing singularly.

However if I just did a similar drill with elbows and shoulder checks akin to Baji, it wouldn’t be boxing or necessarily MMA. It’s just mitt drill done with Aliveness.

Why are we arguing about this again? Aliveness works every time and it’s always proven…this isn’t an argument, it’s a fact whether I note it or not.

My teacher's training syllabus is not exactly the same as his teacher'.

There are many examples of CMA varying. Think about the constant bickering about how techniques are executed that is prevalent in Wing Chun and Lau Gar (read the MAP Kung Fu section for examples of this). Different lineage, different execution of techniques.

The Fujian White Crane system was invented by a woman, which has passed her art to four students. Each of these four students originated a different "branch" of White Crane; Flying Crane, Eating Crane, Sleeping Crane, Calling Crane. This didn't happen because the four got together and decided they would each teach only a limited subset. They just, on their own, emphasised different parts of the training, and that changed the way the art is practiced.

Jeezus F'ing Christ, didn't I JUST SAY that at most there are changes when Forms are passed down from person to person?
That's not changing on the fly akin to a drill. That's a game of "telephone". Where a message like "I want hotdogs" gets passed down to 50 people and the 50th person relays the message as "Hotdogs want sex".

C'mon people: a Form changing in style from person to person isn't a drill variation. Are we really gonna' become brain damaged now?

So let me get this straight. Drills "change" because someone yells out a switch like "Okay now left punch, knee, right punch" or something like that, but somehow it's the same drill?

And lots of people change forms. I watch them and think to myself "where did he learn to do that?"

[FONT=Verdana]
Okay, now you’re confusing me. WTF are you talking about? How does describing a mitt drill have any correlation whatsoever to Contemporary Wushu? I certainly don’t do it, never have, never had the desire to and NEVER will. Because you are stuck on stupid. Wushu forms never change ever never ever. They are for competition so they have a set criteria to meet for judging. This is the standpoint you are talking from hence my question that you did/do wushu.



Uh…two-man Forms, yes, because they’re choreographed fights, not real fights. No matter how hard you bang toward his predetermined block, it’ll always be the same. It isn’t changed on the fly, it remains in a pattern and HAS to be done in perfect form…much like choreography.No that is a weak definition. They are not fights in any sense of the word. They are partner forms.


See the relation? It’s pretty easy.No I see a bunch of straws.



Dear God…


I described a boxing drill…that’s in my Sanshou curriculum.
But sure it’s also in MMA.
And Boxing singularly.
And Muay Thai singularly.
And Kickboxing singularly.

However if I just did a similar drill with elbows and shoulder checks akin to Baji, it wouldn’t be boxing or necessarily MMA. It’s just mitt drill done with Aliveness.You realize this makes no sense whatsoever. Aliveness has **** all to do with you asking if a 2 man form is a drill.

Where in this thread have we eschewed aliveness?

[quote]Why are we arguing about this again? Aliveness works every time and it’s always proven…this isn’t an argument, it’s a fact whether I note it or not.Because,Aliveness was never part off your stupid OP. You said 2-man forms are not drills. We said yes they are. Mr Mantis said you can drill anything. Drilling is repetition.

You threw in aliveness when the debate started to turn a in a direction you didn't like. Then you started adding on the fly, Lockflow drills, focus mits all of which are used in good kung fu schools.

How long have you done sanshou?