Well, to get my black belt in WHKD, you have to fight 10 lower belts at once at heavy contact. Disabling strikes (ie kicks to the knees, etc) are done at low contact and if they land the person acts as if they were injured. In a real fight, I have luckily only had 1 on 1 situations thus far. My Sifu has made the news though.

As for knee caps, it doesn't matter if it's flexed. A side kick to the side of the knee (Which is what I am talking about), will destroy anyone's LCL and prbably their PCL and lateral meniscus as well, or so medical school and physics have told me. Also, the knee doesn't have much muscle supportingi t, it's almost all ligaments--again, having dissected a knee I can attest to this.


I avoid the multiple attacker scenario in discussions because ultimately they don't really prove anything. A multi attacker scanrio has too many variables to prove any hard or fats rules. Multiple attackers may be dealt with strikes. Or they could be dealt with throws a la Aikdo idea of head control and rotation to throw people into each other.

But a lot depends on the people attacking you, their skill and determination.

So at the end of the day it neither proves nor disproves anything and is a dead end issue.

I think that a common misconception is that 'going to the ground' means jumping into guard only. Being 'on the ground' in top position with control over your opponent and the ability to move off where and when you want is in some cases much more desireable than just tossing them a few feet off where they are out of contact with you and unless you have somehow knocked them shitless in the process, you are just gonna have to go through it all over again.

personally i think this is a big part of the problem.... personally i don't really concider getting a kneeride and smashing face as going to the ground.... nor several of the variations of that idea. Basically to me going to the ground is off your feet and down.... usually (but not exclusively) in some form of grapple.... however gaining the mount directly from the throw and striking probably would being going to the ground.... though if the mount does not impede your ability to get up and out it is not so bad ... I guess i concider going to the ground as either 1 guy thrown down or 2 guys going down and being interlocked in such a way to really hamper mobility. (think unable to perform the great ninja flip off here:XXjester: )

Well, to get my black belt in WHKD, you have to fight 10 lower belts at once at heavy contact. Disabling strikes (ie kicks to the knees, etc) are done at low contact and if they land the person acts as if they were injured.

http://www.livejournal.com/userpic/14768147/198419

Ok, I will play Devil's Advocate...

there is a huge amount of similiarity in the language being used with other MA annoyances here...

"Yes, I train grappling and groundfighting, but I would NEVER want to be on the ground in a real fight. If I was in a real fight I would throw them to the ground and smack them from there"

Sounds awfully similiar to:

"Yes, I train point fighting, but if I was ever in a real fight, I would use my real life strikes and kicks that I cant use in point fighting"

It is not a light switch.The problem with your analogy is that

1. many grapplers cross-train with (or have a background in) MMA or some other standup art (boxing, kickboxing, etc) or are BJJers with a background in wrestling or judo where throwing the **** out of people is the bread and butter. So they are not making up theories our of thin air. They are talking about experience.

2. you still ignore the fact that grappling and groundfighting involves throwing them to the ground. Throwing somebody down with an osoto gari or seoi nage while remaining standing and applying an armbar is part of the training. If you are in a position to do that armbar, you are in a position to soccer kick him (see #1). If you have the ability to pick somebody up, you can drop them on their heads. This is not theory - it's fact. In training, when you pick somebody up, you gently (more or less) put them down in a controlled manner and move to get control.

This is a LOT more difficult than just dropping them. Again, this is not theory. It's fact.

3. you ignore the fact that groundfighting is about training to avoid a vulnerable position in the ground (see #2 and then #1).

The best way to find out if these three points are true or false is just to spend 6 months in BJJ, Judo or MMA. You'll see that this is not a light switch.

Your analogy is true only for those who strictly train in sports BJJ (gi) with a choice of not training in anything else AND still think they can flip the light switch.

There are those who choose to train in sports BJJ only, but I doubt they would be delusional to think their training is enough. They make a concious decision and know their limitations. So far, I don't know a single one with such a delusion.

Ok, I will play Devil's Advocate...

there is a huge amount of similiarity in the language being used with other MA annoyances here...

"Yes, I train grappling and groundfighting, but I would NEVER want to be on the ground in a real fight. If I was in a real fight I would throw them to the ground and smack them from there"

Sounds awfully similiar to:

"Yes, I train point fighting, but if I was ever in a real fight, I would use my real life strikes and kicks that I cant use in point fighting"

It is not a light switch.

You fail at logic. For your analogy to make sense, the second phrase would have to be "I train point fighting in case someone point fights with me, even though I concede point fighting would be unpleasant"


You appear to be trying to say to these judoka and bjj people that when they say they could do a hip throw in real life (a throw they do every day in class), they're tatamount to people that train for point fighting and say that in a self defense situation they would do something they DON'T train often or hard - you see the problem with that?

For your first quote to be analogous to your second (as your second is currently written), the techniques the grappler uses to come out on top would have to be techniques he doesn't train in class.

No one's saying that. Superior takedowns and groundwork let you in and out of clinches and grapples. If you're a better groundfighter or judo fighter then someone, you dictate their ability to grapple with you. Knowing how to grapple is germaine to multiple opponent encounters not because you're going to submit them sequentially, but because it's key to staying OUT of that situation where you're pinned on the ground and his buddies stomp you.

This whole argument, by the way, is dumb, becuse its 2007 and if you don't train at a school that does ground and standup, you aren't a complete fighter.

Am I the only one who sees no problem with landing hard on some fucker's ribs with my hip, elbow or knee after a throw?

Okay, so you're vulnerable for a few seconds while you're getting back up, buts it's not like you can't get up quickly from there, you're still somewhat upright and your feet are more or less still on the ground. If his friends are close enough to capitalise on it then obviously it's not a good idea, but if they're that close and swinging you're fucked anyway.

I don't think anyone is saying it's a problem just more pointing out that graplpers don't have to follow the throw down to the ground like many non-grapplers assume.

A lot of times people talk about grappling and street defense with the impressoin that a grappler will automatically grab the guy and go to the ground looking for a sub or groaund and ppund. Grappling arts like Judo and wrestling have great throws. So if in a street situation I grab someone and hip toss them hard so they land badly on the pavment they're on the ground and I am still standing.

that's all I meant.

I'm with both Joe and Waki on this.

Am I the only one who say the high amplitude head spike in an MMA match on youtube last week? That was a fight ender for sure and that's the ultimate goal of Chinese SC (pure throwing) My own teachers throws are usually combined with joint locks. That squares with the SC philosophy of lock--->throw as opposed to the apparent western/MMA philisophy of throw--->lock. He can pretty much guarantee you break something on the way down. It might "only" be your wrist and elbow but the only way you get to roll out of one of his throws is when he lets you.

I assume it's the same with a good wrestler or Judoka. You let go of the guy half way through in practice so that he can breakfall properly or roll out. Now you COULD go the Waki way and drive into him and I've experienced that in a Judo class. a BJJ dude was taking the class at my University just for kicks and in randori with him at one point he shouder threw me and landed on top of me with his shoulder into my ribs which were opened up on account of reaching out to the sides to slap the mat for my breakfall. I am about 80% sure he cracked something but I will never know because I was uninsured so I just had to tough it out for the next 3 weeks or so untill the pain while doing anything like uh....breathing....subsided. OTOH, my current teacher will never do that. He will tangle up your arms so that if he doesn't release something during the throw, something gets broken. You can tell because it usually feels like you are about to get something dislocated or torn BEFORE the throw. The throw is actually a relief because it means he's letting you go.

I can see merit to both approaches. I obviously prefer the latter. That's why I'm studying it but I have experienced the former and can testify to its effect.

p.s.


Most hip throws involve you keeping contact through the arm even after the throw. And traditional japanes jiu-jitsu teaches to keep them close and follow up with something nice like a stomping kick to the mid section

being a nice guy I know a standing arm lock thats good to use on someone lying in front of you.

This reminded me that I don't think the BJJ dude was doing it to be mean. I think we was just trying to transition directly from the throw to the pin. Something like this:

http://judoinfo.com/images/osaekomi/hon_kesa_gatame.gif

It was only a one semester Judo class but that was the first pin he (the teacher) taught us and if you were to stand up up, that is roughly the hold he had on me for the thow. Come to think of it, maybe it wasn't his shoulder in my ribs. Anyways, something along the lines of that pic. Throw + pin.

Wow, ok, I guess I wont play the Devil's Advocate anymore...

Was just stirring conversation...

I will no longer make a post unless it is what I believe.

Good Evening Ladies and Germs...

Tough room...

Just pretend we said it to someone who actually DOES have that opinion and dry your eyes.

Just pretend we said it to someone who actually DOES have that opinion and dry your eyes.

Or what, I will have to eat a James Bond Hip Throw Judo Chop?

Re-reading, yeah, gonna have to change the ole stance...

In my yonger days, I worked as a bouncer. Yes, I had my "I am a tough guy" phase myself.

Watchin the folks try all this in a bar/club was some of the funniest **** you would ever see.

Fucking hip tosses, are you guys insane?

What was the other gem, Oh, : Throw them to the ground and soccer kick em.

No, I am gonna stand by my original statements started as converstaion and say that it is no better then point fighters, opinions from people who have never been in an altercation ever. I am not insulting the fact if you have never been in a fight outside of school yard rules. But sure as hell dont try to sell it as "I am from the streets" **** either...


Fucking hip throws...

OH MAN YOU WORKED AS A BOUNCER HOW MANY PEOPLE DID YOU HEADBUTT IN ONE SHIFT?

HAHAHA!!

No, see I am the ONLY person on this board that has actually HAD his ass kicked. More than once. Lost 2 teeth, scar below my right eye, 2 scars on my head from bottles, both sides of my collarbone broke, 2 fingers broken, 2 ribs broken, a 6 inch scar on the left side of my (now expanding) gut from a knife, 3 inch scar behind my left ear where it was almost ripped off, nose broken a handful of times, right forearm fractured.

Any of this bouncin? 1 bottle, 1 nose.

See, unlike ANYONE else it seems, I have had my ass kicked. Cause i was a pretty stupid kid in my "tough guy" phase.

And in every time I have had my ass kicked, guess what I was most worried about?

Fucking Hip Throws. Yep, that is right, hip throws.

It is bullshit talk from people that think ring time is real **** and proof that what they have "works". And not a SINGLE one has EVERY been in place where their ass has been kicked.

And the worst thing is you hear this **** like hip throws and throw em down and kick em and all it does show is that they have never been in that type of situation.

Again, I am not some tough guy. I had my time where I thought I was. I grew out of it. Everyone else on this board will too.

You wanna go test your cute hip throws? Go test em. Go someplace where you can be hated, bring a few hip tossin buddies. Then start the fight. And when you get your ass kicked, come back and tell me ALLLLL about the way you throw them to the ground and kick them.

You wanna talk about how awesome the hip tosses are in the realm of the mat? Great, I wont argue at all.

But dont pretend for one second on this board or anywhere else that it goes pasted that talking about throwing someone to the ground and kicking them soccer style. You dont sound knowledgeable, you sound like a wanna be tough guy who doesnt have 1 clue.

You're correct. You don't know what your talking about.

Manny people here have been in altercations. I can give anictdotes, I have seen a hip toss in a bar that ended the fight. I have - believe it or not pulled guard to keep from seriously getting my ass kicked (still got my ass kicked but avoided real damage because of it)

Anecdotes however are gay they neither prove nor disprove anything. Everyone brings them up. Aikido works because.,... Aikido doesn't work because.... WC works because.... WC doesn't work because.... so on and so forth.

So on and so forth.

The point was that grapplers / throwers have other options than following someone to the ground and going for a choke.

And comparing a judoka to a point fighter is gay and fallaceous. A karate point fighter assumes in self defense situation that they can punch someone in the face hard, which if all they do is Karate point fighting, is something they never do.

A Judoka assumes in a self defense situation that he or she can throw someone hard, (hip toss O Soto or whatever) and since that's what they practice and do against 100% resistant opponents their ratio of success in a bar or SD situation is a much, much higher.

Now would they stomp someone after throwing them? Depends on the person. But it's not hard to do after you've thrown the person and the point is the option is there.

Or what, I will have to eat a James Bond Hip Throw Judo Chop?

Re-reading, yeah, gonna have to change the ole stance...

In my yonger days, I worked as a bouncer. Yes, I had my "I am a tough guy" phase myself.

Watchin the folks try all this in a bar/club was some of the funniest **** you would ever see.

Fucking hip tosses, are you guys insane?

What was the other gem, Oh, : Throw them to the ground and soccer kick em.

No, I am gonna stand by my original statements started as converstaion and say that it is no better then point fighters, opinions from people who have never been in an altercation ever. I am not insulting the fact if you have never been in a fight outside of school yard rules. But sure as hell dont try to sell it as "I am from the streets" **** either...


Fucking hip throws...Yes fucking hip throws. I've been at the receiving end of them, and I've put them into use... all in real life... and I come from a place where people get gutted on a regular basis. The fact that people try them in altercations does not mean they know what the **** they are doing anyways. It is funny as **** and as much as the folks who bring their hands up trying to look like boxers just to throw wild, circular punches.

So please spare us your sanctimonius "bah". We explained to you in detail why your analogy sucked. You wanna take it personal, then whatever dude. Keep believing what you want. :bduh:

-- EDIT --

As Goju mentioned, most everyone here have been in physical altercations. I have myself, but anectodes are ghay and prove nothing.

But for you to believe you have been the only person who's had a real fight is stupid. In fact, I'll take that as evidence that you are just making up ****.

And as for your "I was a bouncer, blah, blah", news flash for you Mr. Former Bouncer. We have former and active bouncers, law officers and members of the military in this website as well, with real life experience, some of it documented beyond annecdotes typed over the internet.

Believe what you want, and keep typing.