I actually am not arguing that Yang Chengfu was not very very good. By all reports he DID "uphold the family honor". I am only saying that:

1. He was not the best.
2. The form he created is fairly "defanged".

edit: And I only jumped in to bother with that much because someone else described Yang as being the watered down version of Chen that Yang Luchan taught in the palace and THAT is an absurd assumption. So I only wanted to point out that the "watered down" form that he has seen was created by Yang Chengfu and NOT by Yang Luchan.

I have no way of knowing what the entirety of his knowledge was or what he taught in private, to his own kids, to his closest disciples etc. I also, strange as this may seem to some, separate clearly "skills at taijiquan" from "skills at fighting". Taijiquan presents a very unique set of very specialized skills. Those skills, while they were originally either designed for or a product of "MORTAL COMBAAAAAAAT"......they still can and do exist independantly from their combat context. To make a modern day analogy, MMA and BJJ are actually not synonymous. BJJ was designed for Vale tudo but you can still be an excellent BJJ black belt with only mediocre MMA skills. You can focus purely on sport BJJ, work only on submissions and positional strategy and just plain not train striking or even take on challenges where stiking is allowed. You could do all this and still remain respected as one of the greatest BJJ masters of your time. (in theory) You can also become a UFC champ with only very limited BJJ skills. (relatively speaking)

This is kind of how I tend to look at YCF, his form and the derivatives (such as CMC). I see something fairly different from your explanation of CMC's higher, narrower stances. William Chen may have taken things more in a combat direction watching CMC push hands and also form performances, I see him as taking things farther in the direction of "pure taiji", 8 jin, 5 steps.

" actually am not arguing that Yang Chengfu was not very very good. By all reports he DID "uphold the family honor". I am only saying that:

1. He was not the best.
2. The form he created is fairly "defanged"."

Points conceded. I really may have just gotten a little defensive over the language in your your one response.


" have no way of knowing what the entirety of his knowledge was or what he taught in private, to his own kids, to his closest disciples etc. I also, strange as this may seem to some, separate clearly "skills at taijiquan" from "skills at fighting". Taijiquan presents a very unique set of very specialized skills. Those skills, while they were originally either designed for or a product of "MORTAL COMBAAAAAAAT"......they still can and do exist independantly from their combat context. To make a modern day analogy, MMA and BJJ are actually not synonymous. BJJ was designed for Vale tudo but you can still be an excellent BJJ black belt with only mediocre MMA skills. You can focus purely on sport BJJ, work only on submissions and positional strategy and just plain not train striking or even take on challenges where stiking is allowed. You could do all this and still remain respected as one of the greatest BJJ masters of your time. (in theory) You can also become a UFC champ with only very limited BJJ skills. (relatively speaking)"

Thats a damned good way to put it.

"I see something fairly different from your explanation of CMC's higher, narrower stances."

What do you mean?

And just for those who dont know what the 8jin 5steps he is reffering to are, its kinda the basis of all taichi work. Wardoff rollback push press split elbow should pulldown =8 jin or energies. forward backwards left right center=5steps or directions. I might have a slightly different lexicon for talking about that kind of stuff but bottom line they are the 13 postures and all taichi has evolved from them.

This is an alright thread. I thank you for speaking with me in very intelligent and civilized way and I think almost everything you have said has been pretty spot on despite my taking issue with basically one word, lol. When I saw a thread called "taijiquan" on bullshido of all places I braced myself but it has turned out to be very informative enjoyable for me personally.

As usual, this interesting thread goes faster than I have time to give it. Here's a couple comments I wanted to chime in with, after the fact--


The "problem" is just that there is this whole Yang Chengfu line which is definately a step backwards although, I have to admit that the removal of such a large percentage of the technical arsenal has, ironically, produced more fighters than you see in most lines. What has tended to happen is that deprived of a really good set of techniques, a lot of YCF people chant the mantra "principles....principles....principles..." and then rely on simple (aka "high percentage") moves and don't even know what they are missing. They end up focusing on just simple relaxed movement and fight more intuitively. You can go a long way with that. Taijiquan is both technique AND principles. You can kind of get by on either one but I think being forced to only rely on one has made people...well....specialize, and sometimes with quite positive effects.

I've done a little work in both Cheng Man-Ching and Wm. C. C. Chen's Yang (sub)forms, (I am NOT on a footing with your couple resident experts, that is obvious from reading their posts) and whereas elsewhere I think you say you don't know enough about WCCC to comment on his work, you have in fact hit the nail right on the head here.

Here is what WCCC says in his book, Body Mechanics of TCC:

"After my daily practice of the TCC forms, I broke the form down into a set of 4 or 5 movements to use as fighting techniques. I spent an additional hour to train in these techniques and repeated each of them 200 to 500 times in sloe motion and with relaxation. This allowed me to focus my mind on the inner energy flow, coordinated with the outer action. Once I had repeated each technique 5000 times or more, the conditioning of these techniques reached a satisfactory level of performance in slow motion as well as at full speed. I then went on to the next set of movements, and so on."

Well, whoop there it is. I don't think he is exxagerating or being picturesque in his speech at all; here's his "secret", how he did it. He said the same thing in a magazine article in TC Magazine, recently reprinted, and has said the same thing every time someone has asked him at a seminar.

It also explains, to my mind, why you DON'T see a lot of little WCCCs, or other folks really boxing with TCC out there; few people have that kind of work ethic and self-discipline, to do TCC enough, to finally make it work.

It also explains, to my mind, why you DON'T see a lot of little WCCCs, or other folks really boxing with TCC out there; few people have that kind of work ethic and self-discipline, to do TCC enough, to finally make it work.

Not really. They just don't spar or wrestle. The idea that Tai Chi can only be made functional after spending many, many years doing thousands of slow motion repetitions of each technique as done in the form isn't true. People can train in Tai Chi for a couple of years and compete sucessfully if they train at a school where hard sparring is normal.

There is nothing magic about Tai Chi that means you have to wait ten years before you can spar.

"After my daily practice of the TCC forms, I broke the form down into a set of 4 or 5 movements to use as fighting techniques. I spent an additional hour to train in these techniques and repeated each of them 200 to 500 times in sloe motion and with relaxation. This allowed me to focus my mind on the inner energy flow, coordinated with the outer action. Once I had repeated each technique 5000 times or more, the conditioning of these techniques reached a satisfactory level of performance in slow motion as well as at full speed. I then went on to the next set of movements, and so on."Interesting but that sounds like "drilling."


Remember you must always get the whole story.

http://www.williamccchen.com/Characteristics.htm


The basic Yang Style Tai Chi way of combat training is done in slow motion, eliminating mistakes and bad habits; it is a similar manner to that of a beginner typist. Slow and deliberate motion training conserves energy and gets the job done well. It is also an excellent way of daily working out for Western boxers, and for practitioners of any other style of martial arts or sports.




To prepare for a serious martial art match or any sport competitions, muscle power is required, and muscle training is needed. There are many ways to build up muscles, such as running, jumping, weight lifting, punching and kicking, or hitting the heavy bags. Ring fighters need strong muscles in order to produce powerful actions.

Hmmmmm adds a different wrinkle doesn't it.

".................And just for those who dont know what the 8jin 5steps he is reffering to are, its kinda the basis of all taichi work. Wardoff rollback push press split elbow should pulldown =8 jin or energies. forward backwards left right center=5steps or directions. I might have a slightly different lexicon for talking about that kind of stuff but bottom line they are the 13 postures and all taichi has evolved from them....."

Just so I understand clearly. When the reference is made to "TCC" with these thirteen postures, does that include the CHEN Style as well or only YANG material moving forward to, say, WU and SUN?

Since there is a line of thought that CHEN material may have derived in some part from the SHAOLIN Long Fist material might it be possible to move backwards to identify such postures in that material or is this a stretch?

Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

"The 13 Postures" includes Chen style. It's probably the simplest most fundamental "definintion" of Taijiquan that there is. It is, in fact, maybe the only consitant through-line connecting ALL styles of Taijiquan. Each and every single movement is broken down and analyzed through the lens of the 8 main jin (energies) and the energies exist in styles like BJJ too. BJJ just doens't use this particular systematic way of describing things.

It's almost tempting to try and think of specific examples from grappling styles to make the analogies.

Ahhhh..... you must have read my mind!

In Okinawan-Te there are quite a few kata whose names bespeak certain key numbers in Asiatic thinking such as "13" and "108". My thought was that possibly these numbers might reflect some relationship with the various permutations of the elements you mentioned. Since not all combinations of the elements might have proven combat applications it might stand to reason that a form would be constructed of a given number of combinations which the originator had found to be particularly useful. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

8 jin ~ 8 cardinal directions + 5 steps ~ 5 elements = 13 "postures"

8 jin ~ 8 cardinal directions + 5 steps ~ 5 elements = 13 "postures"

Too bad we don't have a MAth Whiz on here who could work out a formulae for how many potential techniques one could develop through recombination of these elements. What I have so far are

X # of positions for the center of gravity

by

X# of directions of movement

by

x# of methods of delivering the energy to its target.

Seems as though it would be a little more complex than simple multiplication since not all combinations of position, direction and delivery would be viable, yes? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Muchas Gracias to Cullion and Is it Fake?? for the corrective slapdown.

I hadn't meant to detail the entire catalog of d34dly secrets of TCC, or imply that was all there is. But I do think Omar happened into one of the legs of the elephant, and his conceptualizing dovetails pretty neatly with what WCCC said about how he does what he does.

I think the degree of repetition needed varies highly depending on the individual, and how reactive they are, IOW how badly they tense up and revert to "hard" force in a fight. Some undoubtedly progress faster, but in many cases, literally thousands of reps are needed before the tendency to stiffen up is trained out and the individual can respond in a relaxed manner.

As far as Is it Fake?? revealing the real d34dly secrets, WCCC is big on training with the
heavy bag, and my current teacher has told me secretly that, if my technique is the equal of my opponents-- then the bigger, stronger guy wins.

There, now we will both be killed for revealing the inner sekrits!

I'd ask where is this paradise, where TCC younglings get introduced to sparring and can fight after a couple years, instead of going thru all the B.S. I did, but if I asked I would probably hear it was in the UK, and only open to students of G.M. Foo Fist, or suchlike, and I would be sad.

Muchas Gracias to Cullion and Is it Fake?? for the corrective slapdown.

I hadn't meant to detail the entire catalog of d34dly secrets of TCC, or imply that was all there is. But I do think Omar happened into one of the legs of the elephant, and his conceptualizing dovetails pretty neatly with what WCCC said about how he does what he does.

I think the degree of repetition needed varies highly depending on the individual, and how reactive they are, IOW how badly they tense up and revert to "hard" force in a fight. Some undoubtedly progress faster, but in many cases, literally thousands of reps are needed before the tendency to stiffen up is trained out and the individual can respond in a relaxed manner.

As far as Is it Fake?? revealing the real d34dly secrets, WCCC is big on training with the
heavy bag, and my current teacher has told me secretly that, if my technique is the equal of my opponents-- then the bigger, stronger guy wins.

There, now we will both be killed for revealing the inner sekrits!

I'd ask where is this paradise, where TCC younglings get introduced to sparring and can fight after a couple years, instead of going thru all the B.S. I did, but if I asked I would probably hear it was in the UK, and only open to students of G.M. Foo Fist, or suchlike, and I would be sad.

I was offered the chance to spar with headgear and 10oz gloves on my third class under what were loosely San Shou rules. There were no restrictions on contact level with kicks and punches, but we didn't elbow the head, and knees were controlled.
I threw punches as hard as I could to disappointingly little effect.
Any throw or takedown allowed, and standing holds like guillotines were allowed to try and get a 'tap'. I got 'schooled' by a smaller opponent, and that's why I stayed.

There's more about it in my training log (look at the early entries).

I've always thought TCC people who claim 'TCC can only be made to work if you spend years doing high reps of various techniques from the form slowly' were just trying to make an excuse as to why they didn't spar.

My view is that whilst many slow reps may help perfect the mechanics of something (just like it does for boxers), there's no reason why you can't spar early and hard. You'll just suck at first, but you'll still be developing other stuff which slow compliant reps don't help with, like toughness against painful and unpredictable impacts, and a keener awareness of why you need to protect your head and keep moving, etc..

Yeah, the type of TCC I train in is mostly in the UK and south-east Asia AFAIK, but I'm sure that any TCC school you can find with a sucessful San Shou/San Da team (very rare, but I'm sure they exist in North America) will be training with a simillar philosophy.

I've always thought TCC people who claim 'TCC can only be made to work if you spend years doing high reps of various techniques from the form slowly' were just trying to make an excuse as to why they didn't spar.

My view is that whilst many slow reps may help perfect the mechanics of something (just like it does for boxers), there's no reason why you can't spar early and hard. You'll just suck at first, but you'll still be developing other stuff which slow compliant reps don't help with, like toughness against painful and unpredictable impacts, and a keener awareness of why you need to protect your head and keep moving, etc..

Great points.

I was offered the chance to spar with headgear and 10oz gloves on my third class under what were loosely San Shou rules.

Ahaha. Like certain hot chicks I have met in the old days, I knew this thread would only break my heart.

After a couple years of studying with an authorized representative of the Wm. C. C. Chen franchise, I pushed him with moderate force during a demo and promptly got chopped in the adam's apple, hard. That is pretty much the extent of realistic training I have recieved in formal schools in the U.S. (Arizona). It may indeed be better in New York or San Francisco, but not anywhere I am likely to live in the forseeable future.

Until I met "oldtyger", who contributes to this site occasionally, I never sparred with anyone using Taiji. Now there is hope; but we also now have two toddlers each (and his wife is expecting) and live on opposite sides of town, so my progress is pretty glacial.

My one hope is (after a pending job change) to get into a "real" martial art program somewhere nearby and partake of sparring while trying to bring some TCC principles along into my training.

I was offered the chance to spar with headgear and 10oz gloves on my third class under what were loosely San Shou rules. There were no restrictions on contact level with kicks and punches, but we didn't elbow the head, and knees were controlled.
I threw punches as hard as I could to disappointingly little effect.
Any throw or takedown allowed, and standing holds like guillotines were allowed to try and get a 'tap'. I got 'schooled' by a smaller opponent, and that's why I stayed.

There's more about it in my training log (look at the early entries).

I've always thought TCC people who claim 'TCC can only be made to work if you spend years doing high reps of various techniques from the form slowly' were just trying to make an excuse as to why they didn't spar.

My view is that whilst many slow reps may help perfect the mechanics of something (just like it does for boxers), there's no reason why you can't spar early and hard. You'll just suck at first, but you'll still be developing other stuff which slow compliant reps don't help with, like toughness against painful and unpredictable impacts, and a keener awareness of why you need to protect your head and keep moving, etc..

Yeah, the type of TCC I train in is mostly in the UK and south-east Asia AFAIK, but I'm sure that any TCC school you can find with a sucessful San Shou/San Da team (very rare, but I'm sure they exist in North America) will be training with a simillar philosophy.

Cullion, does that back-arm forearm/wrist Tai Chi strike get a guernsey in sparring?

Cullion, does that back-arm forearm/wrist Tai Chi strike get a guernsey in sparring?


Which one are you talking about ?

Edit: I'm not sure which technique you mean. If it's something from the form that looks like it might be a weird strike of some sort I may have been taught a completely different, but more workable application for the movement, like a throw