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Sushi-Boy
2/16/2007 1:15pm,
Has anybody out there started in Wado Ryu/Kai but moved to Shotokan?

I know a few who went from Wado To Shoto.

I am curious as to how they found the deepening of the stances etc.

Personally I felt Wado's higher stances felt more natural after starting in Shotokan.

Sparkie
2/16/2007 1:52pm,
Ah sushi boy when you switch from a deep stance to a high stance you loose the mentle aspect of over comiing the pain of the deep stance. BULL ****
I preferred the deeper stances of shotokan over Wado kai. The deeper stance allowed me to train my legs and strengthen my hips while allowing to create better hip movement and increase flex ability all while just doing kata. Yes I fight standing higher I'm faster that way but I preferr to train low and deep.

Plasma
2/16/2007 2:09pm,
Sparkie, why are you training in a matter that is not how you fight?

Let me put it this way. Last Karate guy that came to my dojo asked how you we would proform a technique (aka throw or anything) while he was in a "deep" shotokan stance. So I kicked him in the leg. After hoping around a bit, he left our school. (That also might have to do with a nasty ura nage he got in class).

Now Sparkie you say it just for training and not for fighting. Ok I'll believe you, but when fighting won't you reflexively react how you are trained?

WorldWarCheese
2/16/2007 2:13pm,
In Kyokushin the horse stance in sparring and shiai is pretty much taboo. Look at the Shotokan Leg Sweeps vid for why. They're just not practicle. I used to be into them... until I learned how to do squats in the gym (It's nice our Kyokushin Dojo is in the aerobics room of Gold's Gym) and since then have never looked back.

I'm sure the horse stance had/has/whateverr a valid reason for existing I just can't find one that isn't met the same and better by other workouts.

Yes, we have them in Kyokushin but that's kata work. I mean KATA WORK. As in it might not WORK in randori. (Horse stances don't) so if you feel like Horse Stances aren't your cup of tea, it's because it's silly and overused in a lot of Karate styles.

And Sparkie: How would a horse stance increase flexibility? Or "better hip movement"??? You've lost me with your mental powers.

Shuma-Gorath
2/16/2007 2:34pm,
Now Sparkie you say it just for training and not for fighting. Ok I'll believe you, but when fighting won't you reflexing react how you are trained?
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2647/2747vk5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Here's the best shot I could find of the way we're taught to stand and move in Kickboxing/MMA (see Tony on the left). The Karate-only sparring stance is only slightly deeper, mainly because the rule set is more restrictive. Leg kicks aren't commonly allowed but no one has trouble throwing and countering foot sweeps.

Plasma
2/16/2007 3:21pm,
*image removed to save loading time*

Here's the best shot I could find of the way we're taught to stand and move in Kickboxing/MMA (see Tony on the left). The Karate-only sparring stance is only slightly deeper, mainly because the rule set is more restrictive. Leg kicks aren't commonly allowed but no one has trouble throwing and countering foot sweeps.

Thats makes alot more sense, I was thinking (based on my expirence with that one guy, I admittively say is retarded) a very deep stance. What see above is just a front heavy stance allowing to strong kicks with the rear leg.

To OP: is the Wado Stances higher then this, are they still front heavy stances?

WorldWarCheese
2/16/2007 4:12pm,
Back in my point sparring domination days the stances all look like the Shotokan Sweeps horse-stance-bouncing-like-tkd-guys stance. It's very very very popular nowadays and if you ever see the sparring in the XMA Tourney they have on ESPN2 every now and again (late at night and maybe once or twice a year) you'll see the same thing.

I actually think the TKD stance is a throwback to its Karate origin. That or they both have that point-sparring perfect style.

http://www.kyokushin-kan-usa.com/forum/album_mod/upload/a798612feabd42b7b124b7ee6a055fef.jpg
Check out dude facing away in the middle. Pretty standard stance and looks practically exactly alike the kickboxer IMHO.

[Edit, that pic is the Kyokushin Stance as a version of a karate stance with full contact rules]

sochin101
2/16/2007 5:49pm,
Deep stances in shotokan. Good for conditioning, **** for anything else.
The way it worked for me was the org. would insist on deep stances until you get to brown belt, and then they say "hey, silly bollocks, stand up straight", and then all techniques were performed in kamae.
The only time I did deep stances after brown belt was during kata, or if I was teaching.

Shuma-Gorath
2/16/2007 5:54pm,
Thats makes alot more sense, I was thinking (based on my expirence with that one guy, I admittively say is retarded) a very deep stance. What see above is just a front heavy stance allowing to strong kicks with the rear leg.
That photo is actually still misleading; we're supposed to move in and out with even distribution. The width is right though.

Rick Franklin's footwork was actually similar in his fight with Nate Quarry. He was way stiffer and flat-footed against Anderson Silva.

Sparkie
2/16/2007 8:13pm,
we're not really going to debate training over real life application. **** I thought the readers here were smarter than that. If you can not see the benift of deep stances in train than perhaps you're not doing your stances propperly anyone going into a fighting compation using text book kata formperfect techniques is a fool with a **** head for a sensie. As for wieght training for the most part I get bored counting to ten all day. ura nages are great tho i find myself somewhere between sukui-nage and tani-otoshi. Do I drop back to reaction reflex not as often as you think but then I've had the fortune of some excellent instructors with military and special forces back grounds. so learning to apply what we learned in a competant manner was foremost in their clubs.
It's not as cut and dry as it sounds here and I wish I had the liturary skills to better explain myself. Sorry
Sparkie

hawkmed
2/16/2007 11:06pm,
we're not really going to debate training over real life application. **** I thought the readers here were smarter than that. If you can not see the benift of deep stances in train than perhaps you're not doing your stances propperly anyone going into a fighting compation using text book kata formperfect techniques is a fool with a **** head for a sensie. As for wieght training for the most part I get bored counting to ten all day.

It's not a matter of whether or not deep stances are useful for conditioning. But you can't honestly defend training with some movements and actually using others. Your movements in training should be the ideal way of moving in combat. As you can see in Judo competitions, the real thing may not be as graceful or perfect. However, you do not alter your judo for combat but adapt to the situation. If your stance is so low that you lose mobility it is because it is unrealistic; you art should reflect its application.
Also, no matter how many low stances you practice, you will never be strong as you could be with resistance training. I don't think sacrificing quality training is an excuse or replacement for strength training.

WorldWarCheese
2/16/2007 11:43pm,
I get bored sitting in a horse stance for the half-hour it would take three sets of squats to effectively do.

Horse stance is quaint. I mean, Karate Kid Movie Night quaint. You do a few for the feeling and then when it's over you get back to reality.

If you're suggesting I spend time working on a stance to improve my strength and calling me stupid when I can't tell the difference between training and application then wow.... just wow. I don't expect to use a leg press in a fight. What I don't also do is train in it again and again (be I low or high rank) getting a "good" horse stance (which would take a child of ten about 5 min to do) which I will never use in a fight.

At least some katas (especially in Judo) will teach you techniques and tricks that can be later applied (arguably, I guess but that's been argued to death) the horse stance as a stand-alone stance really doesn't grant you any benefits what-so-ever either strength-wise (comparatively) or technique-wise since you never use it.

Shotokan practitioners seems to love the horse stance but look at the Elwin Hall videos, does his bouncing crazy horse-stance even the same one as you do in kata or kihon? Nope. Thus, while I can't say anything concerning Wado Ryu (all I know on it is what Youtube and Wikipedia grant me) I know Shotokan puts a LOT of emphasis on kata and therefor a LOT of emphasis on the horse stance in a static manner which doesn't seem to help them a lot.

So I can't say Wado or Shotokan as a comparison but I can definitely say Shotokan loves a horse-stance and if you don't then don't do Shotokan.

hawkmed
2/17/2007 12:44am,
No, I wasn't claiming that anyone could not tell the difference between their training and reality. I am saying that training should reflect reality; ideally, there shouldn't be a difference. As far as using a leg press in a fight, I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't think that anything I said came close to implying that strength conditioning movements could be used for combat.

Sparkie
2/17/2007 1:42am,
Actually my first post said nothingof the sort either but pointed to the lose of a training oppertunity, As for judo train being more real than learning the propper application of any technique
and I would hate to be in your shotokan class Warcheese if you waste the that much time in only kiba dashi, propper kata training train runs throw much more than horse stance and I try to do all my katas from a low stance is this better than squats no but since I hate weight training it will do.
judo kata s have one great advantage over most other arts they are two person katas, but they are much a basic catologe of fundamentals as any kata and no more. How often are you told to use all three steps for tourament do you use classic ko uichi gari and if not why train your body to react in classic form. WHY because it builds solid foundatoins for real use situations.
Lets not blow this whole thing out of proportion all arts when taught by a compatently train instructors do well in real life I haven't seen one yet where where the art make good fighters by it's self nor one that taught by a sound instructor failed it's students Non I have seen garbage tought by frouds and good people suckered into believing what a these frauds are teaching. And I think thats where we are going astray. We seem to be going around in circles arguing the same points. So I will clearly stay my belief
Training in traditional kata good. reinforces sound body mechanics . when preformed at propper intensity both provides a propper work out and helps increase flexablity.
Training in traditional kata thinking that this alone and repeated to the "T" when it's needed whether in real life or compation aint going to work.
BUt since this is about trainng in deep stance and I've lead myself a stray of the subject I'll continuewithwhat I do and you continue with yours and hope each other the best.

WorldWarCheese
2/17/2007 4:53am,
No, I wasn't claiming that anyone could not tell the difference between their training and reality. I am saying that training should reflect reality; ideally, there shouldn't be a difference. As far as using a leg press in a fight, I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't think that anything I said came close to implying that strength conditioning movements could be used for combat.

o.O uh... none of that was directed at you. It was all for Sparkie, here. If you want I can comment for ya if it'll make you feel special:cat:

WorldWarCheese
2/17/2007 5:39am,
NOTE: I HAVE SERIOUSLY EDITED THIS POST OUT OF THE NEED TO COMPREHEND IT AND SHEER BOREDOM. IF TYPOS REMAIN IT IS BECAUSE MY OWN GRAMMAR/VOCABULARY IS LACKING.... OR MORE LIKELY BECAUSE I MISSED SOMETHING. I COULDN'T EDIT IT ALL BECAUSE SOME THINGS JUST DIDN'T MAKE SENSE

Actually my first post said nothing of the sort either, but pointed to the loss of a training oppertunity. As for judo, the training is more real than just learning the propper application of any technique, and I would hate to be in your Shotokan class WorldWarCheese if you waste the that much time in only kiba dashi.

Propper kata training train throws much more than horse stance and I try to do all my katas from a low stance; is this better than squats? No. But since I hate weight training it will do.

Judo kata's have one great advantage over most other arts: they are two person katas, but they are as much a basic catologe of fundamentals as any kata and no more. How often are you told to use all three steps for tourament do you use classic ko uichi gari? And if not why train your body to react in classic form? WHY? Because it builds solid foundations for real situations.

Let's not blow this whole thing out of proportion. All arts when taught by a compatently trained instructor do well in real life. I haven't seen one yet where the art makes good fighters by it's self, nor one that is taught by a sound instructor failed it's students. (<-- I just couldn't understand and fix this sentence here) None I have seen garbage taught by frauds and good people suckered into believing what a these frauds are teaching. (<-- Same here...really) And I think that's where we are going astray. We seem to be going around in circles arguing the same points.

So I will clearly stay my belief:
Training in traditional kata is good. It reinforces sound body mechanics. When preformed at propper intensity it both provides a propper work out and helps increase flexiblity.

Training in traditional kata and thinking that this alone and repeated to the "T" when it's needed whether in real life or compation isn't going to work.

But since this is about trainng in deep stances, I've lead myself astray of the subject I'll continue with what I do and you continue with yours and hope each other the best.

:englishmo Really, learn to type or stfu.

Okay, now what I gather is you're too lazy to lift weights, think kata work improves technique, Judo katas have (shock) two people in them, something about me doing Shotokan, something about throws?, and something about live and let live.

Well, I'm an ornery son-of-a-bitch and angry you made me read that so I won't let you live in peace. :tongue1:

I don't do Shotokan, I do capoeira and am friends with people who have done Shotokan (for a number of years) and my Judo Club is currently renting space from a Shotokan-Kan (har har I made a Japanese pun... sorta).

I won't argue for or against kata, it's a dead horse.

We're talking Wado and Shotokan here, not Judo. So I don't give a ****.

Get a life and some balls and go lift.

Anyhoo, the thing with what you're saying is low stances only seem to be good for building muscle mass which is wasted training time.

Use of horse-stances in full contact karate and kickboxing fights have been replaced with more practical stances. Horse stances when bounced like TKD (and similarly Shotokan) off-balance you horribly. Thus I repeat, for the original question: If you feel uncomfortable shifting from Wado which I guess has high stances to Shotokan which has low it's because Shotokan's use of the low stance is not very efficient or effective. Go back to Wado, or better yet do Kyokushin and Judo and come back in a few years and say: "WORLDWARCHEESE you changed my life!" Like all the rest do