I'm glad someone with a little mor experience in both styles is here to finish this as I am growing weary of an unending debate with a man/woman/sparkie whose own particular flair with the English Language I am finding hard to comprehend.

When you trained in Shotokan what stance did you stay in for randori? I mean, there HAS to be a stance in any art where you spend a good deal of time NOT transitioning. What was that stance in Wado-Ryu and again in Shotokan?

Actually, I trained Wado-Kai, not Wado-Ryu. We tend to be a little harder than our RYU brethren, who have more in common with Aikido from what I've noticed. As for the difference, I kept getting reminded by the Shotokan Sensei (a friend of mine) that my technique was not perfect. They spent ALOT of time making their stances look exact, making sure their block looks just so, the punch is exactly this far from their hip, etc. Effectiveness is not as important as looks.

When we sparred, I found a couple of differences that were significant.

1.) Shotokan guys love to kick to the head from low stances. Seems to be a lot of effort, painful, slow but VERY powerful (at least the few I recieved were). Not hard to evade or block, and it opened them up to sweeps, which didn't seem to be used very often.

2.) They moved more slowly when fighting, and even when they started with a higher stance, they would drop down when they went to execute a kick or punch. Hell, even blocking, they would drop about six inches. They were very stable, but they weren't fluid at all.

For the record, their stance for fighting would best be considered a half zenkutso dachi (sp?). They had most of the weight on their front leg, but their knee wasn't as chisled, and the back leg wasn't fully extended. They could move forward and back reasonably well, but didn't adjust to angles at all well.

The more i read about it, the less i think i'm actually doing shotokan karate...

Thanks for a chance to clarify my meaning. I know I don't care for it much when other people cast aspersions and I certainly didn't mean to suggest that WADO-RYU is a failed MA. If people have gotten that idea please allow me to apologize as that was not my intention. Rather the point I was wanting to make was that from the aspect of being a "compound of ju-jutsu and Shurite" (Ohgami's words) what is represented to me is not what I would call a successful "compound". Were this so, here are some of the things I would have expected.

a.) Use of Shuite forms such as one finds in GOJU-RYU (Ie. SANSEIRU or even GEKUSAI; Certainly SANCHIN). I would NOT have expected SHORIN kata such as KUSHANKU and most certainly not post-Funakoshi execution of these forms.
b.) I would have expected some emphasis on Diaphramatic Breathing ("Ibuki Breathing") even if not as dynamic as in, say GOJU or Uechi-Ryu. Likewise I would have expected heavy conditioning regimes including work on the grip and torso often seen in SHURITE styles.
c.) I would have expected use of two-person kata as is found in most ju-jutsu. Some ju-jutsu styles also have one-man kata as well.
d.) Certainly, with the influence of Motobu, I would have expected heavy emphasis on combat effectiveness rather than the use of form over sparring. This would include higher stances, rapid footwork and direct, sometimes pre-emptive strikes. Please let me know if this helps clarify my meaning.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


a.) Can't answer that one. Don't know why we use the Shorin Katas instead of the Shurite, except that Ohtsuka learned them from Funakoshi and felt they had value.

b.) The emphasis in Wado (as I know it, I don't speak for the entire style), is on movement. I would guess that this is derived from the Shindo Yoshin Ryu side of the equation. I'm no expert on Koryu Bujutsu, but since weapons were a key focus (and sword work WAS emphasized in SYRJJ), it makes sense that you would want to evade, rather than train to take the hit, and move through it.

c.) No two person kata that I have seen, but there are a lot of kihon kumite drills and other two man exercises. It's possible that these were included and the two man katas were not.

d.) We spent more time training on this stuff than most Wado clubs, I think. Lots of very direct, simple techniques, less oblique movement than the rest of our style. Very hard, and dependent on body conditioning to keep from injuring yourself. Lots of bone on bone contact. It has a place in Wado, but I believe most clubs choose not to emphasize it because they either don't know it, or they don't like the injuries that go along with it.

Something you didn't bring up, though, Bruce, was how much Wado evolved while Ohtsuka was alive. I believe it started out quite hard, with an emphasis on body conditioning, but these things were eventually phased out as Ohtsuka began exploring flow and softness. From my understanding, he held Ueshiba in very high regard, and felt his teachings had merit. For example, one thing our club never did was use the makiwara boards common to most other styles. It was not considered necessary.

The other thing to note about Wado, is that it was one of the first styles to believe in 'testing' the art. The general opinion is that Funakoshi was no fan of tournaments or fighting. Ohtsuka was, and organized a number of club vs. club meetings. By the accounts I've read, the early tournaments were harsh, and injuries were frequent. It's possible that Ohtsuka decided to modify the art as he aged, to maintain effectiveness without injuring yourself.

Overall, I'm quite fond of Wado as a style, and I think it hangs together quite well. In the end, the techniques are not what makes a style or club unique, it's the philosophy, delivery systems, and training regimen.

The more i read about it, the less i think i'm actually doing shotokan karate...

Everything evolves. There are lots of clubs out there who would look at what I do and say 'That's not Wado'. So much of what you learn in a club is based on the individual instructor and what he learned/was good at. Maybe yours has modified the Shotokan he was taught, added a few things, took out some others.

As long as it works, who cares, really.

a.)

d.) We spent more time training on this stuff than most Wado clubs, I think. Lots of very direct, simple techniques, less oblique movement than the rest of our style. Very hard, and dependent on body conditioning to keep from injuring yourself. Lots of bone on bone contact. It has a place in Wado, but I believe most clubs choose not to emphasize it because they either don't know it, or they don't like the injuries that go along with it.

Something you didn't bring up, though, Bruce, was how much Wado evolved while Ohtsuka was alive. I believe it started out quite hard, with an emphasis on body conditioning, but these things were eventually phased out as Ohtsuka began exploring flow and softness. From my understanding, he held Ueshiba in very high regard, and felt his teachings had merit. For example, one thing our club never did was use the makiwara boards common to most other styles. It was not considered necessary.

The other thing to note about Wado, is that it was one of the first styles to believe in 'testing' the art. The general opinion is that Funakoshi was no fan of tournaments or fighting. Ohtsuka was, and organized a number of club vs. club meetings. By the accounts I've read, the early tournaments were harsh, and injuries were frequent. It's possible that Ohtsuka decided to modify the art as he aged, to maintain effectiveness without injuring yourself.

Overall, I'm quite fond of Wado as a style, and I think it hangs together quite well. In the end, the techniques are not what makes a style or club unique, it's the philosophy, delivery systems, and training regimen.

great stuff! Thanks!

You didn't say much about the ju-jutsu influence. I understand the influence of SHOTOKAN and thats very apparent. What about the ju-jutsu side. For instance, do you folks train on a prepared or matted surface? Are your manipulative techniques more throws? More Breaks? More projections? More locks? Do partners perform breakfalls when the techniques are applied. Any info would help.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

great stuff! Thanks!

You didn't say much about the ju-jutsu influence. I understand the influence of SHOTOKAN and thats very apparent. What about the ju-jutsu side. For instance, do you folks train on a prepared or matted surface? Are your manipulative techniques more throws? More Breaks? More projections? More locks? Do partners perform breakfalls when the techniques are applied. Any info would help.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce, please keep in mind that I am not an expert in the history of Wado. All I know is what I've heard around the dojo, or read in JAMA and other places. I can tell you my opinion, but I will not say this is definitive. Others may disagree, and I could easily be wrong.

Okay, disclaimers out of the way, this is how I see the jujitsu side manifest itself.

We do not train with mats. Our 'throws' aren't really throws, like you would find in judo, for instance. We use wrist and armlocks, usually in conjuction with strikes. We know how to breakfall, and do when swept/knocked over. A lot of our techniques are focussed on breaking our opponents balance (sweeps are popular, there are some knee breaks as well). We do takedowns, but you won't find us grappling much, except for some standup stuff.

As an example, when sparring, it's not unusual for me to slip an incoming punch, and grab it on the way by (my opponent is usually tired and the strike is slow). Usually the opponent reacts by withdrawing their arm as quickly as possible, which means they bend their elbow. I am already at an oblique angle, so I'll step in quickly and either lock the elbow and push them off balance, or I'll turn it into a variant of Kote Gaeshi.

After they lose their balance, and stumble away, I'll pursue with knees, elbows, or punches, looking for a finisher.

o.o Wow, thanks for all this great info on Wado Kai and Ryu and Shotokan, Feryk!

From my own experience watching and training a bit with Shotokan I agree that they drop down all the time! When they do my Judo instincts kick in and with the very bent foreknee I always want to just reap 'em out.

I never noticed the strength of the kicks because we always just did light contact as fooling around after capoeira and didn't feel like injuring ourselves, plus, they told me they were point sparrers and I watched them do THAT at least.

Wado Kai sounds like fun, if my Kyokushin class wasn't so fucking amazing and the fact that all the Nick Cerio Kempo and Han's TKD are stealing our students (well... it's more they're just pussies who don't want to work for skills) so I have to stick around (not a bad thing, just stating a fact) then I'd check out for it in my area, because I think I've heard its name in passing somewhere....

The lock/takedown you're talking about sounds alot like the type of takedown we learned in Goju Ryu (but WE never got to pressure test it...... why I left) a lot of elbow locks + sweeps or wristlocks + sweeps and things done with compliant partners. It was the "Ju" part of Goju I guess.

Now I find this intersting our Shotokan club only insisted on low stances and perfect form for testing. During our workouts and selfdefences drills we would strive for the socalled perfect form but not drilled into us. Yet on the contratray we were discuraged from using the deep stances for sparing because of it's slowness.
I have never been to a club that was so stricked about stances. Infact we where discouraged from changing hights we were told that our heads shouldn't change hights, that excesive head movement hindered stability.
Now after reading the exchanges between Feryk and glad2bhere I may have thje two wado styles confused. The guys who would come to our kempo club boasted about their clobs full contact sparring and bone breaking techniques yet couldn't keep up with our work out (which we trained in deep stances) and had no stabilitiy during sparing.
Our sensie said they came from a week club and not to judge the style based on them and I never have. Though I will admitt that I have choosen not to got to a wado club because of them. ( my bad)

(clip)

We do not train with mats. Our 'throws' aren't really throws, like you would find in judo, for instance. We use wrist and armlocks, usually in conjuction with strikes. We know how to breakfall, and do when swept/knocked over. A lot of our techniques are focussed on breaking our opponents balance (sweeps are popular, there are some knee breaks as well). We do takedowns, but you won't find us grappling much, except for some standup stuff.

As an example, when sparring, it's not unusual for me to slip an incoming punch, and grab it on the way by (my opponent is usually tired and the strike is slow). Usually the opponent reacts by withdrawing their arm as quickly as possible, which means they bend their elbow. I am already at an oblique angle, so I'll step in quickly and either lock the elbow and push them off balance, or I'll turn it into a variant of Kote Gaeshi.

After they lose their balance, and stumble away, I'll pursue with knees, elbows, or punches, looking for a finisher.

Thanks for the info. It sounds like your approach to integrating the manipulation techniques is very much like the approach quite a few Hapkido groups use. For ourselves we use a decent mat so that we can drop our attackers with a bit more force. Since the focus of our art is to "stop the fight" we focus on dispatching the attacker as efficiently and effectively as possible and try not to get into a tussling match with them. For example, we might use a sweep, but more commonly the move would be a shin-kick to the knee. We might do a wrist throw but more commonly the move would be a wrist fracture. An armbar would first be an elbow break and only secondarily a restraint. Something like that.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Sparkie;

I would go to a good Shotokan club over a bad Wado club (or any style club, really) any day. The style isn't as important as the Sensei, and the training. I'll be the first to admit that there is bad Wado out there. Like most styles of Karate, belt factory McDojo's are common.

Students represent their art and their Sensei whenever they train elsewhere. If these guys were boastful, then that tells you all you need to know about where they train. We've had a few guys like that show up in our Dojo, and they never really last. Usually, they leave disappointed, because we make them do the basics over and over until they are bored stupid.

Thanks for the info. It sounds like your approach to integrating the manipulation techniques is very much like the approach quite a few Hapkido groups use. For ourselves we use a decent mat so that we can drop our attackers with a bit more force. Since the focus of our art is to "stop the fight" we focus on dispatching the attacker as efficiently and effectively as possible and try not to get into a tussling match with them. For example, we might use a sweep, but more commonly the move would be a shin-kick to the knee. We might do a wrist throw but more commonly the move would be a wrist fracture. An armbar would first be an elbow break and only secondarily a restraint. Something like that.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

We have those variants available, but it would fall more under 'Jutsu' than 'Do'. My style is Karate-Do and it is meant to be something you can train for life. Breaking stuff impairs your ability to do that, plus it's very hard to train your art full force, if that is the case. As for mats and dropping with more force, for us, the force comes with experience. Up until orange, there was no sweeping at all. We started at green, but it was done slowly, or if used in sparring, very gently.

Now, all bets are off. I've trained breakfalling for a reason. Somebody tips me over, and I get hurt, it's on me. It doesn't happen often but when it does, it's full speed on a wooden floor.

o.o Wow, thanks for all this great info on Wado Kai and Ryu and Shotokan, Feryk!

From my own experience watching and training a bit with Shotokan I agree that they drop down all the time! When they do Judo instincts kick in and with the very bent foreknee I always want to just reap 'em out.

They've probably never trained any grappling, or know how to defend it. One of the problems with Karate can be ignorance of the other ranges of combat.


I never noticed the strength of the kicks because we always just did light contact as fooling around after capoeira and didn't feel like injuring ourselves, plus, they told me they were point sparrers and I watched them do THAT at least.

Point sparring keeps the insurance companies happy. Unfortunately, it means that the students will have lightning fast kicks that feel like a slap from a little girl. Unless they train with contact somewhere along the line.


Wado Kai sounds like fun, if my Kyokushin class wasn't so fucking amazing and the fact that all the Nick Cerio Kempo and Han's TKD are stealing our students (well... it's more they're just pussies who don't want to work for skills) so I have to stick around (not a bad thing, just stating a fact) then I'd check out for it in my area, because I think I've heard its name in passing somewhere....

It is fun, when you can find a decent Sensei. KK is much harder, and reality based. If your Sensei is good, stay there. As for the Kempo and TKD school, let 'em take the students who aren't serious. Leaves room for those that are. However, this is a big problem with schools that are trying to teach MA for money. I've always believed it's better to take the profit motive out of MA, if you can. We rent space in community halls and school gyms, just so we can keep our overhead down.



The lock/takedown you're talking about sounds alot like the type of takedown we learned in Goju Ryu (but WE never got to pressure test it...... why I left) a lot of elbow locks + sweeps or wristlocks + sweeps and things done with compliant partners. It was the "Ju" part of Goju I guess.

Compliant drills are okay (to a point), but a lot **** gets washed away when resistance is applied. Our version of Wado has a lot of the flowery techniques taken away. When our shihan comes to teach us, it isn't some really technical mumbo jumbo. It's simple techniques applied in ways you might not normally think of. His rule of thumb is only to use it if it works. One of the reasons I have a lot of respect for the man. He isn't trying to sell me on some 'secret' techniques. He doesn't have a book or DVD series I need to buy. No 'extra special' training for $1000. A lot of training on delivery systems, to get the technique in where it will help you. It's a good sign that I come back from a weekend seminar with bruises up and down my torso. :)

They've probably never trained any grappling, or know how to defend it. One of the problems with Karate can be ignorance of the other ranges of combat.[QUOTE]
Agreed.



[QUOTE]Point sparring keeps the insurance companies happy. Unfortunately, it means that the students will have lightning fast kicks that feel like a slap from a little girl. Unless they train with contact somewhere along the line.
This is what happened to my Goju Sensei. He would tell us about fighting no pads (minus cup and mouthguard) full contact fights and middle contact sparring and all the hard work and blood and tears he had to go through to get his dan and now we have Junior Nidans age 13 who would get their asses handed to them by an angry kid doing boxing with his dad in the backyard. That's why I do KK now.




It is fun, when you can find a decent Sensei. KK is much harder, and reality based. If your Sensei is good, stay there. As for the Kempo and TKD school, let 'em take the students who aren't serious. Leaves room for those that are. However, this is a big problem with schools that are trying to teach MA for money. I've always believed it's better to take the profit motive out of MA, if you can. We rent space in community halls and school gyms, just so we can keep our overhead down.
He's good, and I am. It sounded like a good back-up though. Our sensei doesn't teach for profit, we're at Gold's Gym and prices for class is Gym Membership. That's it (It's like $35 a month or something). The problem is they're gunna kick us out because after 8 months we have 6 students and two teachers... (Sensei, and a Yonkyo Senpai from the original Dojo somewhere). So we need students pretty bad.:new_let_i




Compliant drills are okay (to a point), but a lot **** gets washed away when resistance is applied. Our version of Wado has a lot of the flowery techniques taken away. When our shihan comes to teach us, it isn't some really technical mumbo jumbo. It's simple techniques applied in ways you might not normally think of. His rule of thumb is only to use it if it works. One of the reasons I have a lot of respect for the man. He isn't trying to sell me on some 'secret' techniques. He doesn't have a book or DVD series I need to buy. No 'extra special' training for $1000. A lot of training on delivery systems, to get the technique in where it will help you. It's a good sign that I come back from a weekend seminar with bruises up and down my torso. :)

Sounds good, especially the bruises. Karate-ka IMHO are a breed apart, I tell my Judo club my training in KK and they call me a masochist. :toothy12:
When you get people who try to run the Boston Marathon in Gi and Barefoot or standing under a waterfall doing Kihon while it's snowing you know you've gone out of your way to train like a flippin' idiot on crack and luvin' it. But yeah, what I love about KK is that aside from the katas that we work on the month before grading for tradition's sake (and IKO rules of course...) flowery techniques and crazy mumbo jumbo just doesn't exist. Period.

(And we have the awsome half-sleeve gi's. I mean, how cool are they?)

And another thing about Shotokan is whenever I watch them practice before Judo about 90% of the time they're "perfecting" kata, which means doing it again and again until they drop and get complimented for dropping and being asked "Now could you tell the difference between that one and the one you did 20 min ago?" and they bob their heads when to me there was no difference except now they're on their ass. I like some aspects of kata when done correctly but "Perfecting" it isn't high on my list when about a week or two with a kata gets me good enough to know all I need from it.

[He's good, and I am. It sounded like a good back-up though. Our sensei doesn't teach for profit, we're at Gold's Gym and prices for class is Gym Membership. That's it (It's like $35 a month or something). The problem is they're gunna kick us out because after 8 months we have 6 students and two teachers... (Sensei, and a Yonkyo Senpai from the original Dojo somewhere). So we need students pretty bad.:new_let_i

If the thing with Gold's doesn't work out, follow him to whereever he goes next. Good for him that he will not compromise to save students.





Sounds good, especially the bruises. Karate-ka IMHO are a breed apart, I tell my Judo club my training in KK and they call me a masochist. :toothy12:
When you get people who try to run the Boston Marathon in Gi and Barefoot or standing under a waterfall doing Kihon while it's snowing you know you've gone out of your way to train like a flippin' idiot on crack and luvin' it. But yeah, what I love about KK is that aside from the katas that we work on the month before grading for tradition's sake (and IKO rules of course...) flowery techniques and crazy mumbo jumbo just doesn't exist. Period.

(And we have the awsome half-sleeve gi's. I mean, how cool are they?)

Practicality is good. There ARE things to be learned from kata, however. Unfortunately, it's hard to learn because most people don't know how to study it other than to repeat it a million times.


And another thing about Shotokan is whenever I watch them practice before Judo about 90% of the time they're "perfecting" kata, which means doing it again and again until they drop and get complimented for dropping and being asked "Now could you tell the difference between that one and the one you did 20 min ago?" and they bob their heads when to me there was no difference except now they're on their ass. I like some aspects of kata when done correctly but "Perfecting" it isn't high on my list when about a week or two with a kata gets me good enough to know all I need from it.

They could learn the same lesson from three minutes of hard sparring. This is a case of the wrong way to study a kata, IMO. Sure, repetition helps. I do mine daily, it keeps me limber, and gives me a chance to get some cardio in. But there is MUCH more to it than that.

For myself I have seen this hundreds of times across a variety of arts. The fact is that most people simply do not know what forms are about or how to use them to polish their studies. As has been mentioned most folks just repeat them a given number of times each week and leave it at that. If its any help, I have seen almost exactly the same thing with people using a heavy bag. It is amazing to see how few people know how to use a heavy bag to improve their use of interval and delivery. Most just walk up to it and start whacking away. Its like watching kids in a TKD school set themselves, and execute a step-across side kick just to see the bag move. The gratification is immediate but the benefits to training are negligible. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

For myself I have seen this hundreds of times across a variety of arts. The fact is that most people simply do not know what forms are about or how to use them to polish their studies. As has been mentioned most folks just repeat them a given number of times each week and leave it at that. If its any help, I have seen almost exactly the same thing with people using a heavy bag. It is amazing to see how few people know how to use a heavy bag to improve their use of interval and delivery. Most just walk up to it and start whacking away. Its like watching kids in a TKD school set themselves, and execute a step-across side kick just to see the bag move. The gratification is immediate but the benefits to training are negligible. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Exactly. But you DO get to look cool to the teenage TKD chicks...sometimes, that's all that matters. :icon_mrgr