It has become a bone of contention around here, with some of us that TKD has core values that as TKDoist we MUST adhere too.


Courtesy
Integrity
Perseverance
Self Control
Indominable Spirit.

I find that most TKD schools are hypocrites when it comes to their tenets.

I find it hypocritical that many TKD schools spout that they live by these tenets, yet they gouge the hell out of their students at every turn.

Many BB's feel that because they have a BB or a higher rank than you the they AUTOMATICALLY deserve your adoration and respect.

I believe the opposite of this. I feel that respect is EARNED by the belt wearer and not just given out because they are wearing a Black piece of cloth around their waist.

The tenets of TKD, as I have experienced them with MANY TKD schools.

Courtesy- Be nice to the customers until they sign a Black Belt Club Contract

Integrity- Make sure that you pay your Benz payements promptly

Perseverance- Never stop looking for ways to add costs to your schools curriculum

Self Control- refraining from just reaching into their pocket and taking their money. Make them hand it to you.

Indominable Spirit- No matter how many times someone tells you, "Why is testing fees going up?" continue to raise them anyway.

I agree with that. Getting respect seems to be more important to other BB's than just earning it. Beacause in that matter you don't just earn their respect but their trust as well and once that's gone it's hard to get back, i think.

I don't see it and have never associated any core value other than beating on people with TKD. I figured this was pretty much limited to the kids classes where they advertise to parents all that baloney about discipline, respect, and so forth. Any attempt to add some sort of value system to adult classes to me would seem like filler bullshit to hide inadequacies in training or to attract those not interested in fighting and looking to LARP.

Why do martial arts have to have values? Why can't they just be about fighting? If I want deeper meaning I frankly would rather go find a philosophy class.


I suppose these codes or tenets or whatever are as much marketing as anything else.

I don't see it and have never associated any core value other than beating on people with TKD. I figured this was pretty much limited to the kids classes where they advertise to parents all that baloney about discipline, respect, and so forth. Any attempt to add some sort of value system to adult classes to me would seem like filler bullshit to hide inadequacies in training or to attract those not interested in fighting and looking to LARP.

It isnt emphasised as much in the adult classes, but it is still there. Whenever I take a TKD guy to task, then they try to appeal to my TKD values. It saddens me.



Why do martial arts have to have values? Why can't they just be about fighting? If I want deeper meaning I frankly would rather go find a philosophy class.


I suppose these codes or tenets or whatever are as much marketing as anything else.

Agreed and Agreed.

I don't need martial arts to tell me to be a good person. Leave the pseudo-philosophy at the door. And they aren't TKD values, they are Confucian values that were peddled to Westerners because they wanted the "Asian flavor".

When I joined the school I'm in now, I was told that everyone that came in was treated with a measure of respect.

Weather or not it lasted beyond the fist visit was a function of the way you conduct yourself.

Fucktards will always be fucktards, once they show their colors, show them your back!

I don't need martial arts to tell me to be a good person. Leave the pseudo-philosophy at the door. And they aren't TKD values, they are Confucian values that were peddled to Westerners because they wanted the "Asian flavor".


I started this thread, because someone was trying to appeal to my MA values in another thread.

I hate that ****.

Tenants are tenants and I always take them with a grain of salt, and I didn't have to do TKD to learn them. I agree that having someone try to appeal to your good sense using the tenants are basically fucktwats.

My MA values are punch or get punched. My life values were taught to me by my parents. Appeal to that.

Tenets, it's TENETS. Ok?! Tenants are people who pay you rent.

Whenever I take a TKD guy to task, then they try to appeal to my TKD values. It saddens me.

That's the only time I've ever people talk about the Martial values, is when you call them on their BS. Well that and belt tests.

MA values, what's that? To me it's "better to be quiet and have people wonder if you're a dumbass than to open your mouth and confirm that you are a dumbass". Those that have ethics and morality don't talk about it, they live it. Those that talk about it may want it, but don't have the courage or intestinal fortitude to do it.

My two cents (Canadian too)

Tenets, it's TENETS. Ok?! Tenants are people who pay you rent.
My bad, I'll go to my room and think about what I've done.

I am courteous to just about everyone, until they show me that they are an ass. I try to be nice, since my kids are watching. I also dont want my kids to think that you should just sit back and let someone walk all over you.
If someone says some stupid ****, then you call them on it. Speak your mind, and dont regret it. Others feel that it is ok to say what they want, why cant I do the same?

I teach them to say yes sir no sir, yes ma'am, no ma'am, the boy I teach to hold open doors for ladies and get up and let a lady sit down.

I also teach him how to defend himself.

Confidence in your ability to defend yourself, verbally and physically , leads to courtesy. It means that you have no reason to be an asshat, you have nothing to prove.

Courtesy is knowing that the same rules apply to you as they do another person. You have the right to speak your mind, and so do they.

I just hate it when People call me a Martial Artist. **** that. I notice that they usually do it when their argument has about a jillion holes punched in it, the suddenly its "Well as a MA I would think you would understand."

I tend to disagree. I think values in the martial arts are important. I think its what seperates martial artists from thugs. Here are the tenats of my first school, which I have pretty much tried to live by.

Loyalty to country
Respect for your seniors
Friendship amongst equals
Benevolence for your juniors
Rightness in one's actions

I guess I'm just full of BS, then. :bully:

I tend to disagree. I think values in the martial arts are important. I think its what seperates martial artists from thugs. Here are the tenats of my first school, which I have pretty much tried to live by.

Loyalty to country
Respect for your seniors
Friendship amongst equals
Benevolence for your juniors
Rightness in one's actions

I guess I'm just full of BS, then.
I don't disagree with you; however, the holier than thou self righteous attitude of many who hide push the ideals can be hypocritical at times, in addition there tends to be NO grey area when dealing with some people who take the tenets (MAV I GOT IT RIGHT, beer for me) and stick so hard to them without using a shred of critical thinking or common sense. Another thing I find highly suspect is that there is always loyalty to country, schools, instructors, etc . . . I have yet to see a set of values that says loyalty to self. Where or when does a person get to do what is best for themselves in the value system?

I agree with TEA and Oldman. I try to live by my honour, but if someone fucks with me that goes out of the window. As martial artists we hold a special position in that we can defend ourselves and protect others with our skills (And heightened confidence/martial spirit) if need be. How we use those abilities in our daily life is the true test of who we really are. Without these values martial arts lack art and culture, reducing them to unrefined street brawling. There is a Chinese character "Xia2" that explains it well, but my Chinese programme is being @funky@ today.

I also agree that many TKDists are hypocrites. When I studied TKD everyone spouted that BS but during sparring would try to cheat to win, show off during class in the most egotistical way, and BBs making jokes about WBs (Whose actual skill levels were not much lower). After I became a 2 dan and wanted to continue to learn more I was more or less ignored. This, needless to say, pissed me off so I went to a Combat Hapkido place nearby and got schooled by the teacher, who was also busy with MMA. This pissed me off even more - the realisation that everything that I had practised so hard to learn was complete BS. Where were their values when an honest student worked hard, while masses of no-name, soulless yellow belts threw one bad punch after another with ki-haps lacking any aggressiveness whatsoever? And where were their values when they catered to the latter?

- Maarten Sebastiaan Franks Spijker