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WorldWarCheese
2/10/2007 5:48pm,
Time for some karate. Now I'm sure most of us here are familiar with Kyokushin's famous 100 man kumite and Oyama's legendary 300. Here's something to put forth: Is this found in any other karates or even just random traditional arts be they Japanese or not.

I've heard stories that he got the concept from a Goju or Shotokan master (or whatever) who had to fight an entire Dojo himself in a challenge between the schools and be beat all 50 or 100 of them or something but this is sensay so I'm not sure and can't find anything on it.

The Chinese legends (we all know how trust worthy THESE are but it's worth a mention) have every master entering a new town and wanting to make a gym had to set up a Leitai fighting platform and fight off and on for 14-20 days and as many as 200 challengers.

So it looks like there's been instances of this before Kyokushin or even Mas Oyama himself but is there say a Bujinkan "50 Ninja Challenge" or maybe some Koryu have tests that last up to 100 people or something. Just curious.

ojgsxr6
2/10/2007 5:53pm,
If I remeber correctly, Oyama did the 300 man kumite because Kimura had accomplished a 300 man randori.

Ke?poFist
2/10/2007 10:21pm,
Kimura also followed in Kano's footsteps and counted to infinity....twice.

KickboxerGuy
2/11/2007 7:57am,
If going by Francisco Filho's kumite is any guide, then these were not full-force competitions, just exhibitions, ending in 'finishing' blows, not even that most of the time. No one could even fight off 300 gary colemans if they were mad.

DCS
2/11/2007 2:57pm,
From an article (http://www.aikidoonline.com/index2.asp?location=/Archives/2000/oct/feat_1000_tkc.html)written by T.K. Chiba (Aikido master):


YAMAOKA TESSHU, the swordsman who founded the Muto-Ryu School of Swordsmanship during the Edo period, understandably decided to introduce the training known as "Tachigiri-No-Seigan".

His intention was to carry out a close inquiry concerning the essence of martial discipline by injecting the element of Zen discipline into the Dojo training (of swordsmanship) where the practitioners are forced to confront their own true faces by being driven into a situation where there is no escape.

The disciples of Yamaoka made a vow to engage in the following progressive training:

1st stage- Two day commitment to engage in 200 contests per day, alone, and without stopping against 20 opponents who are permitted to rest and attack in rotation. Prior to committing to the 1 st stage, the disciple had to carry out the training for 1000 days without fail.

2nd stage - Three day commitment - same as above.

3rd stage - 7 day commitment - same as above.

4th stage - 1000 days training without stopping, from 4 am to 8 pm each day, competing against 100 opponents per day.

This training regime is also mentioned in this article (http://www.tokitsu.com/it/presentation/articles/aticoli-fr/reflexion-sur-le-budo-etude-a-partir-du-kendo/seigan-tachigiri-geiko-menkyo-kaiden.html) (in French) by Tokitsu Kenji.

WorldWarCheese
2/11/2007 4:27pm,
If you watch the clips of Kancho Matsui's fights on youtube it doesn't look very "light contact" at all. And in Kyokushin once you knock someone to the ground to gain a half-point or point (full point is like Judo Ippon victory) you simulate a punch or kick to show you COULD follow it up if you so chose. I've seen Filho's fights but I'll watch them again since they look less than full contact.

DCS: I have an exam coming up so I didn't read the articles but were these fights in the modern Kendo style with shinai and bogu or were they with nothing but reg uniform and a bokken or something?

DCS
2/11/2007 4:34pm,
@WWC
Shinai and bogu, kendo style.

Rock Ape
2/11/2007 5:59pm,
Being a kendoka, I wouldn't relish the idea of fighting that many kenshi under those circumstances.. We'd be talking about a very high level of cardio-vascular fitness.

WorldWarCheese
2/12/2007 12:12am,
In my Judo dojo whenever someone gets the bright idea to enter some of the State level and Interstate level tournies our dans GO TO TOWN on them in randori. I mean they have to fight all the dans PLUS kyus in the room in a row, no breaks 4 or 5 minute matches ('pending on judoka's rank since matches in MA are only 4 min for kyus...)

Either way they usually get 10-15 people which amounts to a good hour long randori sentence. I say sentence because NO ONE has ever made it without collapsing once or twice (by then we give 'em a minute or two before the next fight) but man it sucks.

Note of interest tho': Two or ours guys places in the top 4 of the Chavez tournament for the Kyu Heavy and Open weight division.

I heard my Kyokushin Sensei had to fight at least that many (all sankyu's or higher) for his dan test.......

I don't know how Kendo would be but I've picked up a bogu and they're not light, and I suspect neither would be a shinai after a good fight. Even the double-weave gi feels heavy after fight #4 or so!

Sushi-Boy
2/16/2007 12:04pm,
Can anybody tell me who Oyama fought for his 300 man kumite?

Or perhaps when?

I remember an interview with Steve Arneil in Fighting Arts International (Old UK TMA mag) where Steve does not know if it ever happened but said it MAY have been true.

Cuchulain
2/16/2007 12:22pm,
Can anybody tell me who Oyama fought for his 300 man kumite?

Or perhaps when?

I remember an interview with Steve Arneil in Fighting Arts International (Old UK TMA mag) where Steve does not know if it ever happened but said it MAY have been true.

you want someone to list 300 hundred Japanese names?

ojgsxr6
2/16/2007 12:43pm,
This page is where I found out about the 300 man kumite.
http://www.masutatsuoyama.com/100mankumite.htm

CanucKyokushin
2/16/2007 5:35pm,
Most likely however many students he ha at the time and he fought,

Which means if he had 50 students at the time.They each fought Oyama 6 times.

"....And he would go one day better! He chose the strongest students in his dojo, who were to fight him one at a time until they'd all had a turn, and then they'd start from the beginning again, until the three hundred rounds were up. He defeated them all, never wavering in his resolve, despite the fact that he himself suffered severe ....."

Rince and repeat

kensei
3/08/2007 8:27am,
Oyama was a show man and alot of the stories about him are BS or blown out of th realm of reality by a yard. for instance his bull killing, I saw the video, that thing was half dead when it staggered out of the barn! and his weight training, he said that he would do something like 1000 bench press reps a day. Now, I know of a modern guy that tried to repeat this "work out" and he did it one day, it took him the whole day, he did not use full weight ( IE his personal best weight) he went lighter and he still could not move his arm for a week, and he does weights as a regular part of his training, he is in great shape and he said if Oyama could do that EVERYDAY, then he was born on Krypton or something. Most of Oyamas stories are great marketing, but that is about all. the 300 man sparring, was probably more like 30 man tip tap sparring. If you went full contact with 300 guys or even semi by about 100 you would feel like a tenderized T-Bone....lets use our brains and think about it for a second here gang. Probably not the way it went down.

WorldWarCheese
3/08/2007 11:56am,
Oyama was a show man and alot of the stories about him are BS or blown out of th realm of reality by a yard. for instance his bull killing, I saw the video, that thing was half dead when it staggered out of the barn! and his weight training, he said that he would do something like 1000 bench press reps a day. Now, I know of a modern guy that tried to repeat this "work out" and he did it one day, it took him the whole day, he did not use full weight ( IE his personal best weight) he went lighter and he still could not move his arm for a week, and he does weights as a regular part of his training, he is in great shape and he said if Oyama could do that EVERYDAY, then he was born on Krypton or something. Most of Oyamas stories are great marketing, but that is about all. the 300 man sparring, was probably more like 30 man tip tap sparring. If you went full contact with 300 guys or even semi by about 100 you would feel like a tenderized T-Bone....lets use our brains and think about it for a second here gang. Probably not the way it went down.

Well, first off I've never seen the bull videos so I can't comment on that (maybe another Kyokushin guy will know) and I've never heard of the workout routine (though I hear it was greuling and he says the only man who equalled/bettered him was the Judo God Kimura.).

Also, if there's one thing I like about Kyokushin is that compared to a lot of other karate schools out there it doesn't tippy tap. I don't even think my sensei knows what point sparring is. And watch Kancho Matsui's and Filho's 100 man kumite's, they are by far not tippy tap.

kensei
3/08/2007 12:46pm,
That is great. I love hard training and contact sparring. i just dont like BS claims when the truth is just as good. when people talk about how hard Kyokushin is I do not disagree, those guys are great fighters.....but Oyama is pure BS when it comes to alot of his claims. Not only that but he claimed to be a Judo sandan and a Sandan in Shotokan....he had a brown belt in both. Now, I have nothing against his style, it is pure blood and guts, but alot of the fairy tails that the students are told are bullshido at the best of times.