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hawkmed
2/10/2007 12:00am,
I was curious as to the resemblance of Judo throws to their koryu origins. Are the throws well preserved from their lineage, or have they greatly changed? Was there as much emphasis on the jacket (as in Morote-Seoi-Nage) as a source of contact for the throws as in their koryu counterparts?

wackamole
2/10/2007 12:06am,
Check out Draeger's kata book on nage no kata and katame no kata.

Gasp. Dead patterns. Draeger seemed to like 'em and he was a bad ass.

Wonder why?

Plasma
2/10/2007 12:21am,
I was curious as to the resemblance of Judo throws to their koryu origins. Are the throws well preserved from their lineage, or have they greatly changed? Was there as much emphasis on the jacket (as in Morote-Seoi-Nage) as a source of contact for the throws as in their koryu counterparts?

Many throws were similiar if not the same. For example, Osoto Gake is found in numerous Ko ryu . However, throws like Seio Nage become a bit impractical when one's opponent is wearing 80 pounds on armour. That is where throws such as Ganseki Nage is more usable. When the end of the warring states and the fact people stopped wearing armour, the more Ko Ryu throws were turned into more modern Judo.

I might post again when I haven't been up for 20 hours straight and didn't just get back from a 4 hours Koppojutsu and Kenjutsu session.

Fitz
2/10/2007 7:20am,
The major differences between Judo throws and their Koryu counterparts can be boiled down to intent and mechanics. Judo throws are designed to allow fellow practitioners to catch breakfalls by landing them squarely on their backs and will most likely incapacitate an unskilled "victim" of such a thrown rather then kill them. Many koryu throws are built around landing the opponent in such a fashion that it either severely incapacitates them or straight out kills them by preventing them from being able to make any form of breakfall. These separate intents change the mechanics of the throws.

The most Koryu looking material in Judo is contained in the now rarely practiced Koshi-no-kata which Kano formulated to preserve elements of Kito-ryu techniques thought it was definately "Kano-ized for safety." You can see Kano* engaged in portions of this kata at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3r59hDG3Vw

You can see a more recent presentation of it, with all its oddly stylized ceremonial features and slow pace influence of the Kano recording, at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3xFGrWXZjs

I'd love to see a few people who have trained this material for practical rather then ceremonial use but somehow I doubt it will happen in m life time.

As far as Draeger and "dead patterns" goes have a look at

http://www.judoinfo.com/kata.htm

to see that his interest in Kata was fueled by a dissatisfaction with it being practiced in a compliant fashion.

*Kind of fun seeing the founder of Judo wearing "magic pants" and "ninja booties." Didn't he know they were t3h gh3y?

WorldWarCheese
2/10/2007 7:31am,
The major differences between Judo throws and their Koryu counterparts can be boiled down to intent and mechanics. Judo throws are designed to allow fellow practitioners to catch breakfalls by landing them squarely on their backs and will most likely incapacitate an unskilled "victim" of such a thrown rather then kill them. Many koryu throws are built around landing the opponent in such a fashion that it either severely incapacitates them or straight out kills them by preventing them from being able to make any form of breakfall. These separate intents change the mechanics of the throws.

The most Koryu looking material in Judo is contained in the now rarely practiced Koshi-no-kata which Kano formulated to preserve elements of Kito-ryu techniques thought it was definately "Kano-ized for safety." You can see Kano* engaged in portions of this kata at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3r59hDG3Vw

You can see a more recent presentation of it, with all its oddly stylized ceremonial features and slow pace influence of the Kano recording, at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3xFGrWXZjs

I'd love to see a few people who have trained this material for practical rather then ceremonial use but somehow I doubt it will happen in m life time.

As far as Draeger and "dead patterns" goes have a look at

http://www.judoinfo.com/kata.htm

to see that his interest in Kata was fueled by a dissatisfaction with it being practiced in a compliant fashion.

*Kind of fun seeing the founder of Judo wearing "magic pants" and "ninja booties." Didn't he know they were t3h gh3y?

GOD FUCKING PIECE OF **** DAMN MOTHER FUCKER YOU BEAT ME TO IT!!! ARRRRGHHHH!
(Loss of sleep or hangover? Either way I'm pissed):icon_mad: :icon_mad: :icon_mad: :icon_mad:

Yeah, what he said.

[Edit: Reading the Draeger article has instentaneously changed my mind about Judo Kata]

Fitz
2/10/2007 7:49am,
[Edit: Reading the Draeger article has instentaneously changed my mind about Judo Kata]

He has a funny way of doing that to people.

Now go and convert another and see if you can start some kind of non-compliant Judo kata training movement.

(In answer to your question, mostly sleep loss)

WorldWarCheese
2/10/2007 8:12am,
He has a funny way of doing that to people.

Now go and convert another and see if you can start some kind of non-compliant Judo kata training movement.

(In answer to your question, mostly sleep loss)

Bringing back the "randori" in Randori no Kata? Kinda tough for a gokyu, don'tcha think? Either way I'm seriously thinking about adding Nage no Kata into my fellow Kyu's and my informal weekend trainning sessions. (The one good thing about being the former "junior sensei" of a krotty McDojo that I now sponsors a seperate Judo Club who needs the matt space which I switched to.... I have the keys to the Dojo:walk: )

sicky
2/28/2007 6:24am,
I Love this. it shows some forms of Judo that are long forgotten by most practicioners.

WorldWarCheese
2/28/2007 9:43am,
Welcome to Bullshido.net: Japanophiles Section. And I don't think Judoka have forgotten these forms, but rather since they're basically used as tradition and grading and formality (not saying that's what they are, but the fact is that's what they've basically become to most Judoka) that the just don't really bother with them and have replaced the forms with Uchi Komis, that's all.

wackamole
3/02/2007 12:01am,
a lot of teachers will use the sections from the kata to teach a throw. they just don't tell the students it's from the kata.

or, they will have the students practice the throw "kata style" with increasing resistance by the uke.

Liger
6/04/2007 8:27pm,
Kime and Katame no kata are from/influenced by Takenouchi Ryu, and are executed slightly differently in koryu schools influenced by that ryu(atemi waza is present in the koryu version that is not in the judo one)

Also, and this is something covered by Dreager, koryu techniques depend less on the gi traditionally. This might have changed in recent times though

Fitz
6/05/2007 9:19am,
All Judo throws are varients from their Ko ryu origins. Made to be safer and cause less damage or fatal damage for the use in sports or competition.

That's the common perception but it is not correct. Kano did not develop Judo to be a sport ot to be focused mainly on competition. Both of those developments took place after Kano's death and reflected the need for Kodokan Judo to remake and remarket itself as acceptable to the US occupation after WW2.

The throws were modified to allow for safe regular training with a minimum of damage to practitioners.


Traditional seoi nage - Grab the arm. Palm facing out with the arm braced against your shoulder. Break the arm (works on some armor, other armor will protect the arm) while lifting the opponent up. Place the opponents palm on the ground by sweeping your leg backward through their legs. (much like a roll)

Lifting throws are rather rare in armored circumstances and rely upon turning the opponent around your armor rather then taking their weight onto yourself in most circumstances. Within the art you have apparently been learning take a look at the Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken when it is done by someone familiar with it. You'll notice nearly all of the throws require deeply stepping behind your opponent and turning them across your lower back and pelvis or very for the few that revolve around forward contact they are passed sharply off of your hips.

Seoi nage, in the fashion that is found within Judo, descends more from the post-Waring States non-armored jujutsu styles (Tenji Shinyo-ryu was only on its third generation when Kano studied it) then it does from yoroi kumiuchi though yoroi training was significant to the material in the Kito Ryu.

To get a sense of how Kito ryu's yoroi kumiuchi looked in Kano's time however check out the Kodokan's Koshiki No Kata. You'll notice very little of the oppoent's body weight is taken upon the thrower in these methods.


The heavy Gi jackets in Judo act much like armor. If you ever get the chance to practice against armor you will find that the gaps in the armor are perfect hand holds and will be in much the same place as you would use in Judo.

I wouldn't say that they act much like armor but the habit of grabbing the lapel in the fashion that is done in Judo is related to where one traditionally grabbed the tied on yoroi. The convention of holding the elbow however is not related to yoroi training but rather a result of training in kimono and keikogi. With yoroi you typically see the wrist as a holding point of the other hand.

Virus
6/05/2007 9:29am,
Does koryu jujitsu mainly fight with the feet flat on the ground or on the balls of the feet?

Sophist
6/05/2007 9:39am,
All Judo throws are varients from their Ko ryu origins. Made to be safer and cause less damage or fatal damage for the use in sports or competition.
No. A few are unique to judo (e.g. hane-goshi). Some are borrowed from other sources than koryu jujitsu (e.g. kata guruma). A great many are borrowed more or less unvarnished from the original koryu techniques; a lot of judo's safety came from rejecting techniques rather than alterations.


But at their core all throws work on the same principles. Judo throws aim to throw people on their back where as traditional battlefield throws aim to put someone on their head to break the neck.
Again, not really. Getting your opponent to the floor so you could slip a dagger through his armour was often enough.


Judo seoi nage - Grab the arm. Palm facing towards you, shift your hips in and throw using legs placed together, knees bent.

Traditional seoi nage - Grab the arm. Palm facing out with the arm braced against your shoulder. Break the arm (works on some armor, other armor will protect the arm) while lifting the opponent up. Place the opponents palm on the ground by sweeping your leg backward through their legs. (much like a roll)
Entirely false. Seoi nage is known to have entered koryu jujitsu from sumo, the oldest surviving Japanese martial art.
http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/7.html

The technique you describe is a hideous gendai jujitsu retrofit that would never work on a resisting opponent. The huge shittiness of standing armlocks is not a recent thing.


The heavy Gi jackets in Judo act much like armor. If you ever get the chance to practice against armor you will find that the gaps in the armor are perfect hand holds and will be in much the same place as you would use in Judo.
You've never practised against armour ever.

FictionPimp
6/05/2007 2:58pm,
My judo instructor talking to a Brown belt getting ready for his black.

"Ok, I'm going to have to track down someone to teach you this stupid kata, I haven't done it in at least 20 some years."

Fitz
6/05/2007 3:34pm,
My judo instructor talking to a Brown belt getting ready for his black.

"Ok, I'm going to have to track down someone to teach you this stupid kata, I haven't done it in at least 20 some years."

How does this related to "Judo Throws and the Resemblance to Koryu"?