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hawkmed
2/07/2007 9:58pm,
Hey all,
I'm new to bullshido and a previous practicioner of Bujinkan budo taijutsu (previously called Bujinkan Ninjutsu) of 9 years. I started at 14 years old, so I was fairly isolated from any discussions that this may not be genuine. After I started Judo, I realized some of the disbelief thats out there about Hatsumi's claims. So, I've looked into some but it seems that while I have seen that what I learned of ryu such as kukishin ryu and shinden fudo ryu looks authentic, I can't find any proof of Togakure's existence outside of the system. Is this whole thing just a farce or the lies of Hatsumi? Did he mix legitmate styles with hooplah for money?

shinbushi
2/07/2007 10:03pm,
Use the Search function noob

hawkmed
2/07/2007 11:57pm,
I found some good articles after searching through some unhelpful bashing. I feel violated. Now I want kobudo without the bullshinkan.

shinbushi
2/08/2007 12:34am,
Why do want to train in kobudo (I assume you me Japanese and not Ryukyu)?
Outside of Japan real ones are hard to find, though California has 2 high level ones. If you train in judo pick a striking style. If you want the classical weapons training, some Bujinkan schools are good for that.

Virus
2/08/2007 12:55am,
I'll oblige the opening post.

Some of the ryu in the bujinkan are valid, kukishinden ryu and takagi-yoshin ryu are legit. I'm not sure about the others but the "ninjitsu" schools, togakure, kumogakure and gikkan are not recognised as real koryu, and can't be traced back any further than takamatsu. It was written in a certian edition of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten that takamatsu made up togakure out of childhood ninja games. A few recent articles have surfaced on various forums alleging that "ninjitsu" was added becuase it was impossible to compete for attention with the kokdokan. One thing is for certian, you can look as hard as you want, you won't uncover anything about togakure which doesn't come from the bujinkan/takamatsu.

Plasma
2/08/2007 8:06am,
Use the Search function noob


The JMA forum is new, I approve a new thread on this that can be moderated.

Plasma
2/08/2007 8:10am,
I'll oblige the opening post.

Some of the ryu in the bujinkan are valid, kukishinden ryu and takagi-yoshin ryu are legit. I'm not sure about the others but the "ninjitsu" schools, togakure, kumogakure and gikkan are not recognised as real koryu, and can't be traced back any further than takamatsu. It was written in a certian edition of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten that takamatsu made up togakure out of childhood ninja games. A few recent articles have surfaced on various forums alleging that "ninjitsu" was added becuase it was impossible to compete for attention with the kokdokan. One thing is for certian, you can look as hard as you want, you won't uncover anything about togakure which doesn't come from the bujinkan/takamatsu.


You mean Togakure-ryu, Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu

Gikan-ryu(義鑑流) is a Koppojutsu lineage that is taught through Akimoto family.

Plasma
2/08/2007 8:34am,
Hey all,
I'm new to bullshido and a previous practicioner of Bujinkan budo taijutsu (previously called Bujinkan Ninjutsu) of 9 years. I started at 14 years old, so I was fairly isolated from any discussions that this may not be genuine. After I started Judo, I realized some of the disbelief thats out there about Hatsumi's claims. So, I've looked into some but it seems that while I have seen that what I learned of ryu such as kukishin ryu and shinden fudo ryu looks authentic, I can't find any proof of Togakure's existence outside of the system. Is this whole thing just a farce or the lies of Hatsumi? Did he mix legitmate styles with hooplah for money?

The 9 Ryu-Ha

Kukishin(den)-ryu & Takagi Yoshin-ryu

Legimate Ko-ryu that traditional are taught and handed down together. There are a load of lineage charts for them most of them correct.


Gyokko-ryu & Koto-ryu

Sister ko-ryu arts from the Momochi clan in Iga. There are a few lineage since Takamastu Takamatsu Toshitsugu including the students of Ueno Takashi

Shinden Fudo-ryu

Again a Ko-ryu art with quite a few lineages.


Togakure-ryu & Kumogakure-ryu & Gyokushin-ryu

Ninjutsu Ryu-Ha that are NOT Ko-ryu they are gendai budo that are basis of them are older scrolls and technique salavaged through research primarily. The oldest which was created by Takamatsu in the 50s. The other 2 have no record past Hatsumi.

Gikan-ryu

Koppojutsu lineage taught through the Akimoto family.

hawkmed
2/08/2007 5:18pm,
Ninjew:
Just to clarify, it is thought that Hatsumi manufactured these styles (komogakure ryu and Gyokushin ryu)? We were told that Hatsumi is a star of the kodokan, does he have any standing in Japan?
While I plan to continue to studying Judo, I do miss some of more integrated throwing techniques of the Bujinkan in which strikes are used to set up throws. Could you suggest a Japanese kobudo that does this? I have considered traveling to the UNC to study Daito ryu Aikijujutsu, but I have wondered if this was a battlefield tested system? I have read some things that suggest that this was more of an aristocratic art. Another possibility is Tanemura's brand of jujutsu (Kokusai), but I also don't know of its roots, and I haven't found much written about it.

Virus
2/08/2007 8:47pm,
We were told that Hatsumi is a star of the kodokan, does he have any standing in Japan?


He's not a star of the kodokan and even if he was, he's tarnished any such status by starting a ninja school for naieve westerners. Amongst historians the ninja are seen as a bit silly and cartoonish which is why very few of them take self-styled "ninjas" seriously.

One of our members, Mongo, informs us that Hatsumi isn't very highly regarded by respectable koryu and judo masters in Japan. I'd be interested in hearing some of the things he has heard them say during his time in Japan.

Plasma
2/09/2007 8:05am,
Ninjew:
Just to clarify, it is thought that Hatsumi manufactured these styles (komogakure ryu and Gyokushin ryu)? We were told that Hatsumi is a star of the kodokan, does he have any standing in Japan?
While I plan to continue to studying Judo, I do miss some of more integrated throwing techniques of the Bujinkan in which strikes are used to set up throws. Could you suggest a Japanese kobudo that does this? I have considered traveling to the UNC to study Daito ryu Aikijujutsu, but I have wondered if this was a battlefield tested system? I have read some things that suggest that this was more of an aristocratic art. Another possibility is Tanemura's brand of jujutsu (Kokusai), but I also don't know of its roots, and I haven't found much written about it.

Yes. Unless some new evidence comes to light Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu were invented by Hatsumi. As they aren't even taught, I wonder why he did it in the first place.

Hatsumi in his youth was an excellent Judo-ka. As for star....who knows? I am sure they have his win-loss record at the Kodokan.

Most Japanese Jujutsu Ryu-ha incorpotate Striking and Throwing. Off the top of my head any of the Kukishin or Yoshin Ryu variants have the more Judo-like throwing. As for Daito-ryu, its basically sharper Aikido. A lot of small joint manipulation and locking on the elbow and lower. If memory serves, Daito-ryu was a palace art (aka bodyguarding) rather then battlefield. It would be more like Harder Aikido and less like "alive" Bujinkan.

Now I have more respect for the Tanemura-sensei organizations Genbukan Ninpo/Kokusai Jujutsu/Koryu karate. I don't think you'll find a school that doesn't teach all three. However, the Kokusai Jujutsu is primarily Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Asayama Ichiden Ryu (Daito-ryu sister school). The Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu contains a lot of striking to set up throws. However, there has by a lot of noise of Genbukan dojo claiming the "too deadly to spar" rhetoric. So check the school out first and ask if they spar.

Fitz
2/09/2007 9:37am,
Yes. Unless some new evidence comes to light Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu were invented by Hatsumi. As they aren't even taught, I wonder why he did it in the first place.

If Gyokushin has a recent inventer it is more likely to have been Takamatsu rather then Hatsumi. Ueno Takashi claimed a lineage in the art though the line differs from the one that Hatsumi usually gives in terms of who the previous Soke were. Also there is apparently a Kumogakure-ryu line headed by Tonbe Nobusato Kenji independent of Hatsumi.


Hatsumi in his youth was an excellent Judo-ka. As for star....who knows? I am sure they have his win-loss record at the Kodokan.

It may simply have been a poor choice of terms. From what I recall Hatsumi held a 4th Dan in his mid 20s before shifting his focus towards Koryu arts and eventually finding Takamatsu.

Antifa
2/09/2007 2:05pm,
Yes. Unless some new evidence comes to light Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu were invented by Hatsumi. As they aren't even taught, I wonder why he did it in the first place.

Hatsumi in his youth was an excellent Judo-ka. As for star....who knows? I am sure they have his win-loss record at the Kodokan.

Most Japanese Jujutsu Ryu-ha incorpotate Striking and Throwing. Off the top of my head any of the Kukishin or Yoshin Ryu variants have the more Judo-like throwing. As for Daito-ryu, its basically sharper Aikido. A lot of small joint manipulation and locking on the elbow and lower. If memory serves, Daito-ryu was a palace art (aka bodyguarding) rather then battlefield. It would be more like Harder Aikido and less like "alive" Bujinkan.

Now I have more respect for the Tanemura-sensei organizations Genbukan Ninpo/Kokusai Jujutsu/Koryu karate. I don't think you'll find a school that doesn't teach all three. However, the Kokusai Jujutsu is primarily Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Asayama Ichiden Ryu (Daito-ryu sister school). The Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu contains a lot of striking to set up throws. However, there has by a lot of noise of Genbukan dojo claiming the "too deadly to spar" rhetoric. So check the school out first and ask if they spar.

What little KJJR I've done (which is very basic and very little) seems, in light of this new information (well new to me) to very much reflect the Daito-Ryu sister school you are talking about. Lots of standing wrist and forarm locks and submissions.

It is interesting to hear of it as a "Palace Art" when I felt like the KJJR side of things more reflected Tanemura'-sensei's time and experience in the Tokyo PD. Alot of those locks make good "come-alongs" etc. Thanks for the new perspective.

Fitz
2/09/2007 2:51pm,
What little KJJR I've done (which is very basic and very little) seems, in light of this new information (well new to me) to very much reflect the Daito-Ryu sister school you are talking about. Lots of standing wrist and forarm locks and submissions.

Those are major features in most Koryu and pre-Modern* forms of Jujutsu. The kyu rank material for the KJJR seems to reflect a good solid "here are the basics" that you see as features in most Jujustu that then allows people to specialize in particular lineages after this work has been functionally integrated and can be used fluently. The kind of Jujutsu that is emphasised in the KJJR is the form of unarmed combat that was popular among the Samurai after the Warring States period when open warfare was rare but direct unarmed or lightly armed confrontation still took place.

*Daito-ryu, while not Gendai is not exactly Koryu either. This has been the subject of a lot of discussion and debate over the last few years with the general concensus being that Sokuaku Takeda formed the Daito-ryu in 1890 based upon his overall training experiences.


It is interesting to hear of it as a "Palace Art" when I felt like the KJJR side of things more reflected Tanemura'-sensei's time and experience in the Tokyo PD. Alot of those locks make good "come-alongs" etc. Thanks for the new perspective.

I've been meaning to take a look at some of Tanemura's Goshinjutsu materials. Chances are his years with the Tokyo PD are most reflected in this section of his curricula.

hawkmed
2/09/2007 11:12pm,
The kyu rank material for the KJJR seems to reflect a good solid "here are the basics" that you see as features in most Jujustu that then allows people to specialize in particular lineages after this work has been functionally integrated and can be used fluently. The kind of Jujutsu that is emphasised in the KJJR is the form of unarmed combat that was popular among the Samurai after the Warring States period when open warfare was rare but direct unarmed or lightly armed confrontation still took place.

So, the Genbukan allows you to specialize in particular arts that are included in the curriculum? How does this work? it seems that it would be difficult to accomodate. Does the Jinenkan also reflect this?

Also I am curious if you know why Daito ryu style fighting (i.e. wrist/ elbow manipulations) became more popular after the warring periods? It seems to me that the Japanese were generally very proud of lineage, and I would have thought that they would be slow to change their ways. Also, I was under the impression that Daito ryu was developed during the warring periods by Yoshimitsu Minamoto as he studied wrist manipulations that often took place on the dead after a warring event (I read this somewhere, if it is untrue, I don't mean to spread misinformation).

Fitz
2/10/2007 6:23am,
So, the Genbukan allows you to specialize in particular arts that are included in the curriculum? How does this work? it seems that it would be difficult to accomodate. Does the Jinenkan also reflect this?

After someone ranks to 3rd Dan in the Genbukan system they're given the option to study specific ryuha that Tanemura is qualified to teach and give license in. As far as the Jinenkan goes they do seem to be studying the Takamatsuden Ryuha that Manaka is qualified to teach and give license in but I have not heard of him passing on formal license for these schools. Someone who has had more direct experience with the Jinenkan may be better qualified to give you information.


Also I am curious if you know why Daito ryu style fighting (i.e. wrist/ elbow manipulations) became more popular after the warring periods?

The really quick and somewhat oversimplified answer if that the role of the Samurai shifted from being full time warriors to being administrators. In the same way that more people today tend to train for things like one on one non-lethal competitive fighting or martial arts for their own sake rather then as preparation for combat such things became popular alongside arts designed towards self and other protection within the halls of administration/government. In such an environment being able to control/disable an attacker become more important then being able to kill them quickly and move on.


Also, I was under the impression that Daito ryu was developed during the warring periods by Yoshimitsu Minamoto as he studied wrist manipulations that often took place on the dead after a warring event (I read this somewhere, if it is untrue, I don't mean to spread misinformation).

A rather extensive lineage for Daito-ryu was given by Takeda Sokaku as a part of his reconstruction/revival of the ryu but I wouldn't put too much stock into it. There's a decent thread with some contending points on the origins of Daito-ryu at

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-17048.html

I tend to favor the recent origin interpretation in the sense that Takeda Sokaku is the one who brought together his various training under the umbrella of the Daito-ryu name rather then that he simply made it all up. As such Daito-ryu as it exists today has an origin no earlier then 1890 with some substantial modifications taking place afterwards.

To bring this back to the original topic of this thread I get a sense that Takamatsu's role with a number of the lineages he trained in and passed on is much the same as Takeda Sokaku's role with Daito-ryu. It is simply that rather then take all his experiences and stitch them together into a single ryu he separated them out across a number of ryuha. This is however personal speculation and should be treated as such.