Well I guess Bujinkan people should find it encouraging to know that Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu are verifiable. That is really something I wasn't aware of and I think it should be made more widely known.

Even the Skosses don't seem to be aware of this, as their website implies that only two of the ryhua (Kukishinden Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu) are genuine.

http://www.koryu.com/library/kbfaq.html#q4


What is commonly taught as Ninjutsu, in Japan and elsewhere, is a fairly recent collection of unarmed and weapons arts two of which are independent koryu.

It was suggested a few years ago during a nother round of "Did Takamatsu fake this stuff???" that it might be better to look at the Togakure Ryu material as Kuden that Takamatsu turned into a more formallized Ryu. In doing so he likely fleshed out areas of the Ryu based upon his other experiences.

It is certainly possible that the Kuden could have a very long lineage to it but it would be impossible to trace in any definitive fashion. Oral traditions are notoriously problematic that way.

I'm going to weigh in on this tentatively and with questions. I'm going to present thing as I seem them. I reserve the right to be dead wrong.

I want to be clear that I'm not taking a side and I dont really feel like I have a dog in this fight. But something isnt right here and nobody here or on e-budo seems able to clear it up. At a certain point its all speculation anyhow. So lets play with some speculative questions.

The Allegation is that either Hatsumi or (probably Takamatsu) just made up Togakure Ryu. My question is:

WHY?

If... Takamatsu made it up and IF Hatsumi perpetuated the fraud (which is what some people claim is at the heart of the Hatsumi-Tenamura split)... Why?

Both men were incredibily talented martial artists in their own right (Hatsumi held something like a 5th Dan in Judo before he started with Takamatsu). Takamatsu's skills are not in doubt either. Both held full mastership in 6 (or is it 8?) Ryu-ha that are certified. Thats more achievement than anybody present in this discussion could reasonably aim for in 3 lifetimes.

The thing that is missing from the discussion is why would such men, already in possession of so much knowledge and so much credibility, in a society where everything is written down and such a fraud doesnt stand a chance, commit such an act and cling to it for almost 60 years? Given their stature there was no need in the 50s to do this and given Hatsumi being Soke of all the other schools why would he push multiple times to validate something he knows to be false when he doesnt need it in the first place?

Forgive me, but on the face of it, it seems like a reckless act by men who know better in order to achieve very little gain.

I have theories, but I'll let other people sound off first.

Takamatsu made it up and IF Hatsumi perpetuated the fraud (which is what some people claim is at the heart of the Hatsumi-Tenamura split)... .

Is that the reason for the Hatsumi/Tanemura split? If that is the case, it seems odd that Tanemura would still teach Togakure Ryu and Ninpo. If that really was why he split, wouldn't he have disavowed the whole Togakure Ryu totally? Instead, he went and got a second menkyo kaiden from Yoshio Fukumoto (another Takamatsu student) ... also in Togakure Ryu.

Anyway, I like your questions.

There's also this recent thread on kutaki. Basically, some history researcher claims to have uncovered some allegations that Takamatsu was teaching fake karate back in the 1920s.

http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3612&forum=7

Is that the reason for the Hatsumi/Tanemura split?

the only two people who know for sure are Hatsumi and Tanemura. They are first cousins. They went in the back room at Hatsumi's mothers funeral. Nobody heard what was said (or if they did they aint talking and if somebody talked now they shouldnt be belived). They havent spoken since.

Speculate away.

Here is an interview with Tanemura from around the time of the founding of the Genbukan. Some of the factors related to his decision to branch out on his own are covered.

http://www.genbukan.ca/articles/tanemura_talks.html

In the article that's linked above, it say's that Tanamura spent 25 years training with Hatsumi and Takamatsu, which is totally incorrect. As far as I can remember unless someone wants to correct me, Tanamura only ever trained with Takamatsu once, when Hatsumi brought him (he was then Hatsumi's student) to train with his teacher! Why do people think Tanamura was Takamatsu's student when he clearly was not?(if I go to another Dojo and train for the day, does that make me that instructors student...NO) I'll stand corrected if this can be proven otherwise, but you must supply hard facts, not opinions!

i am curious as to what year Tanemura claims he started studying under takamatsu...
and what the year was Hatsumi became soke. and why if Tanemura is a real student of Takamtsu did he fall under hatsumi in the bujinkan for so long.
like i said in another post, there are alot of questions w/ Tanemura, if you watch the panther productions videos he flat out lies about how he learned martial arts.
there are too many questions with him...that's why i train bujinkan.

and i like the post asking WHY takamatsu and hatsumi would make this up.

secondly, with the claim to Togakure ryu...why would tanemura except it and teach it?
somebody else posted a few posts before this (i should have quoted it) that someone else claims to know Togakure ryu and learned it from someone else other than hatsumi.....
so the bujinkan is not the only org. that recognizes togakure ryu, plus what about reaserch into togakure daisuke...isnt there some history on his life outside of martail arts...but actual history, that would be really good supporting fact for this.

after reading Tanemura's article on here....from what i have learned in the bujinkan, (part of it) Tanemura split becuase he either disagreed w/ hatsumi /did not understand what he was teaching.
it seems to be similar to Manaka's way of teaching...sticking only to the techniques...

and tanemura's reasponses kinda fit into this.

i am curious as to what year Tanemura claims he started studying under takamatsu...
and what the year was Hatsumi became soke. and why if Tanemura is a real student of Takamtsu did he fall under hatsumi in the bujinkan for so long.

From what I've gathered Tanemura was Hatsumi's primary training partner while he was attempting to learn and apply what Takamatsu was teaching him for the majority of the 15 years that Hatsumi studied with Takatamtsu. The two of them slowly expanded the circle of individuals involved in the training forming the original core of what became the Bujinkan.

In the same sense that all involved within the Bujinkan are considered ultimately Hatsumi's student, regardless of the Shihan and Shidoshi they train with so too were all of these original core members seen as students of Takamatsu. For better or worse most of this came via correspondence and via Hatsumi's transmission of what he was learning.


like i said in another post, there are alot of questions w/ Tanemura, if you watch the panther productions videos he flat out lies about how he learned martial arts.

I really think you should get a better understanding of just what something like Hamon within a martial tradition means for both parties involved. It might clear things up considerably.


there are too many questions with him...that's why i train bujinkan.

I'm sure you have other reasons as well.


and i like the post asking WHY takamatsu and hatsumi would make this up.

No one familiar with the material feels that Hatsumi made this material up. Where there are questions is just how far and in what form the material for Togakure Ryu, an admittedly small ryu all things considered, extends back historically.


secondly, with the claim to Togakure ryu...why would tanemura except it and teach it?

Because he find it to have valuable material to it and while aware of the historical verification issues related to it feels enough confidence in Takamatsu as a teacher to not doubt his word.

Which, come to think of it, also applies to Hatsumi.


somebody else posted a few posts before this (i should have quoted it) that someone else claims to know Togakure ryu and learned it from someone else other than hatsumi.....
so the bujinkan is not the only org. that recognizes togakure ryu, plus what about reaserch into togakure daisuke...isnt there some history on his life outside of martail arts...but actual history, that would be really good supporting fact for this.

Kacem Zoughari found some references within historic material that Takamatsu would not have had access to that provides some outside proof of the existence of figures within the Togakure Ryu lineage. It might be worth talking to him about it as well as some of the other issues related to Togakure Ryu's recognition status as among Japanese Martial Arts historians. He's a really interesting character and well worth talking and training with.


after reading Tanemura's article on here....from what i have learned in the bujinkan, (part of it) Tanemura split becuase he either disagreed w/ hatsumi /did not understand what he was teaching.

A bit more detail on elements of the split have come out over the years but the main crux was simply a disagreement of how things were being taught.


it seems to be similar to Manaka's way of teaching...sticking only to the techniques...

They both hold that technical skill and knowledge is a requirement to truly capture the essence of the Arts. You'll find similar sentiment among teachers within the Bujinkan though there is not as much emphasis across the entire organization.

you mean Hamon like "kicked out"...

that still doesnt answer the question as to why someone whould lie about there training. i would say i trained here...left and started my own organization.

i think hatsumi's teaching methods are just to hard for some to understand.

he never intended for the bujinkan to get this big or to have this many students, that was not his goal...

i think possibly one reason for hatsumi teching the way he does is because of the amount of people in the bujinkan...

the only problem i have with other schools or the thing i like about hatsumi's training is the variations and the way he teaches, but when trying to learn everything, ya i would like to see more actual 'techniques' but the thing is, you can't/ dont get that from people like tanemura/manaka..and i think its more of a flaw of the students in the bujinkan, not the bujinkan's fault...we as students are suppose to go back and focus on the techniques and learn them, and practice...so its up to the students to learn and practice the techniques.

hatsumi doesnt teach either..he shows us stuff, and says, "you have to steal the technique" from him...i feel he actually applies ninjutsu phylosophy to how he teaches as well, more of an evolution of the technique in this way there is alot more knowledge to be gained, and his phylosophy goes far beyond what anyone else teaches, but it's up to the student to grasp it!

you mean Hamon like "kicked out"...

You're vulgarizing the concept but generally yes.


that still doesnt answer the question as to why someone whould lie about there training. i would say i trained here...left and started my own organization.

Again, find out more about the topic of Hamon. For example why does Hatsumi almost never mention his training with Ueno in Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu and Asayama Ichiden Ryu? Because he was subject to Hamon from that lineage. His not speaking about that lineage save in vague ways is his sign of respect to the one who gave that Hamon. Similarly Tanemura's not speaking about Hatsumi save for a few generally positive statements about his training experiences with him is also a sign of respect to Hatsumi.

It's a Japanese cultural thing. Considering the amount of time you claim to be in Japan it might be worth learning a bit more about that culture.


i think possibly one reason for hatsumi teching the way he does is because of the amount of people in the bujinkan...

You're probably partially right with that.

He taught only the basics for year, which few people bothered to learn. They kept clamoring for more and sure enough he's provided it to the point of distraction.

Too bad none of what he is teaching makes sense without that foundation in the basics.

hatsumi has said just that...and he is not teaching to everyone, only training to his highest students, or at that highest level, the training is not intended for everyone,
additionally he is not teaching..he is practicing himself, and showing us stuff, he has said this. so i wouldnt put fault on the bujinkan, only the students and teachers who dont teach what they need to.

i'll look into this Hamon thing...i may not be a japanese culture guru, but i do know alot, but i've never herd it mentioned before.

and Hatsumi has talked about his experiance w/ Ueno and former martial arts practice, however with what he has received from Takamatsu i would pretty much disregard all of the other stuff as well if i was him.

just like he has practiced those other things...but he doesnt claim to be a grandmaster of it...just like if you recieve a menkyo kaiden, that doesnt make you a soke.

just like he has practiced those other things...but he doesnt claim to be a grandmaster of it...just like if you recieve a menkyo kaiden, that doesnt make you a soke.


Many Menkyo Kaiden holders, end up opening their own school and branch of the style. Hence why you have Takagi Yoshin-ryu (Hatsumi), Hontai Yoshin-ryu (True lineage), Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu (the True Takagi Yoshin-ryu lineage), the Tanaka Yoshin-ryu lines, etc.


reptileddp, how long have you been training? Who do you train under now?

Just as an aside, I hear that Hatsumi was meant to have 5th dan in Judo and 5th dan in Aikido before he met Takamatsu. Is there any truth to that?

Just as an aside, I hear that Hatsumi was meant to have 5th dan in Judo and 5th dan in Aikido before he met Takamatsu. Is there any truth to that?

The general authorized biography for Hatsumi, such as the one found at www.ninjutsu.com/soke-hatsumi.shtml states he had been a 4th Dan in Judo before he set out to learn about Koryu Budo. No mention of his standing in other Gendai arts is typically made though it is stated that he studied Aikido, Kendo and Karate as well.

If he was only 27 years old when he met Takamatsu then he couldn't have been all that highly graded in so many other arts could he?

Yet I remember reading some article claiming that he had 150 dan ranks! Yes, one hundred and fifty!