Incidently on Bullshido.com we have a style profile of Ninjitsu that addresses some of these issues.

Also I am curious if you know why Daito ryu style fighting (i.e. wrist/ elbow manipulations) became more popular after the warring periods?

The really quick and somewhat oversimplified answer if that the role of the Samurai shifted from being full time warriors to being administrators. In the same way that more people today tend to train for things like one on one non-lethal competitive fighting or martial arts for their own sake rather then as preparation for combat such things became popular alongside arts designed towards self and other protection within the halls of administration/government. In such an environment being able to control/disable an attacker become more important then being able to kill them quickly and move on.

Your logic here is approaching bullshido; the lack of effectiveness of standing arm locks and joint manipulations has been discussed many times before, therefore any argument that such a shift took place because they are more effective in a particular context is crap and ignores reality.

If anything such a shift can be seen as a move away from the rigors of training for real fighting towards a softer and easier martial larping approach which was facilitated by the lack of imminent real conflict.

Your logic here is approaching bullshido; the lack of effectiveness of standing arm locks and joint manipulations has been discussed many times before, therefore any argument that such a shift took place because they are more effective in a particular context is crap and ignores reality.

Standing locks and joint manipulations on their own can be inefficent, but that isn't the issue. Most of the arts from the period being discussed weren't exclusively about these elements though they were part of a larger context of practice. The major switch was from armor and weapons based arts with mainly lethal intent to mainly unarmed methods designed for non-lethal application.

Would you say contemporary boxers and BJJ practitioners are "larping" because they're not training in firearms instead?

Here is a site with some decent history in it. Also contained in some of the style histories are lists of the grandmasters' lineages. I'd be interrested to see where exactly the others' claim to the styles diverge from these...at Takamatsu? Before?

http://www.mbdojo.com/history.htm

It's a decent site for Budo Taijutsu as well. Unfortunately, Ken Harding is no longer teaching. He was a phenomenal martial artist who kept realism in the highest regard. He self-divorced from the Bujinkan after over 15 years because of politics/bullshido tendencies.

From the same website there is a listing of the Waza for each of the Ryuha as taught within the Bujinkan at

http://www.mbdojo.com/ryukata.html

I haven't sat down and gone over it with a fine tooth with comparisons to the other known lineages however. A project for another time.

From the same website there is a listing of the Waza for each of the Ryuha as taught within the Bujinkan at

http://www.mbdojo.com/ryukata.html


Good resource.




I haven't sat down and gone over it with a fine tooth with comparisons to the other known lineages however. A project for another time.


Most of the Lineage divergsing come after Takamastu with lines through Ueno, Sato, and Hatsumi.

So with all the controversy and speculation around Takamastu's Ryuha if I wanted to be a "real ninja" or at least train in their original Koryu arts what should I take?

(This is all very hypothetical as I both assume the only places to train in these ares are half a world away and I really have no interest in being a ninja whatsoever, Ninja never had Kimura. But it still interests me, especially with the ninja craze my anime slap happy geeky friends are in [I'm a geek too, but I like Yawara the Fashionable Judo Girl better than Ninja Scrolls] I'd like to know)

So with all the controversy and speculation around Takamastu's Ryuha if I wanted to be a "real ninja" or at least train in their original Koryu arts what should I take?

Takamatsu was a Kukishin ryu Shihan and most of his Ryu-Ha are well documented, its the Togakure ryu people qusetion.




(This is all very hypothetical as I both assume the only places to train in these ares are half a world away and I really have no interest in being a ninja whatsoever, Ninja never had Kimura. But it still interests me, especially with the ninja craze my anime slap happy geeky friends are in [I'm a geek too, but I like Yawara the Fashionable Judo Girl better than Ninja Scrolls] I'd like to know)


Well.....no where really. Any school that have ninjutsu is there school have it as a subsection. However, Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu would be as close as possible.

Takamatsu was a Kukishin ryu Shihan and most of his Ryu-Ha are well documented, its the Togakure ryu people qusetion.





Well.....no where really. Any school that have ninjutsu is there school have it as a subsection. However, Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu would be as close as possible.

Granted. Thanks, time to make some anime fanboys cry, :hippy2:

Ninja never had Kimura.

I disagree:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=71679568247094694&q=budo

There are Omote (outside) and Ura (inside) versions of this shoulder lock. It's called Oni Kudaki and is part of the 8 basic kata that most Budo Taijutsu schools teach. The hand placement is a bit different than the ground-based "Kimura" but the same lock is achieved using the same leverage points.

I disagree:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=71679568247094694&q=budo

There are Omote (outside) and Ura (inside) versions of this shoulder lock. It's called Oni Kudaki and is part of the 8 basic kata that most Budo Taijutsu schools teach. The hand placement is a bit different than the ground-based "Kimura" but the same lock is achieved using the same leverage points.

I'll be nice since this is a nice forum. :love3:

But I was talking about the guy the move was named after, not the technique used in BJJ. It's called a Hidari Ude Garami, or just simply Ude Garami and ours looks exactly like theirs because we had it first. :new_cussi

Understandable mistake and Welcome to Bullshido: Japanorama Section.

[Edit to stay on Topic: Is this Tech considered Kosher by our Ninja staff? And... hmm.... YEAH! Would this be found in either Gyokko or Koto Ryu? or is it totally gendai?

Here's the same move from the Shinden Fudo Ryu school:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=832777590146579348&q=oni+kudaki

Sorry, the dude in the video is a bit lame, but you get the point. In SFR it's more of a clinch move, with the same effect. The same maneuver exists in all six schools, they just each have their own "flavor." I'll try to dig up at least a drawing of the Koto Ryu version.

*Edit: I'm trying to stay on topic without turning this into a technique thread. I guess my point is that each Ryu has their own version of pretty much all of the same techniques. Basically, it proves that they all had the same origins or converged/diverged at least a few times over history.

**Double edit: Well, damn. I can't find it on Google or Youtube, plus it's not listed here as a kata under Koto Ryu:
http://www.mbdojo.com/ryukata.html
I'll keep looking...


***Closer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk0Tzz0iQbA
We also train using a variation where you step in behind them for a hip toss instead of whizzing them down. (There's almost no real safe way to do this BTW. Just lifting them with the lock with pop the shoulder out.)

The major switch was from armor and weapons based arts with mainly lethal intent to mainly unarmed methods designed for non-lethal application.

Would you say contemporary boxers and BJJ practitioners are "larping" because they're not training in firearms instead?

You’re not getting my point. I am not saying they were larping because weapons were not involved, I am saying they started larping because they started putting together techniques with very little practical application against live resisting adversary (e.g. things like standing arm locks). The shift in techniques was less a quest for “non lethal applications”, and rather a by-product of the lack of conflict which allowed people to start basing their approach on theory rather then practical application.

Lol, real Nin-Jew: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UinLk4yIxNQ&NR

[Edit to stay on Topic: Is this Tech considered Kosher by our Ninja staff? And... hmm.... YEAH! Would this be found in either Gyokko or Koto Ryu? or is it totally gendai?


The Older name (at least in Jujutsu Ryu-Ha I do) for the "Kimura Lock" or Kudari Ude Garami is Gyaku Oni Kudaki. Oni Kudaki I've seen done in hte Kukishinden ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu, aka the Jujutsu ryu-ha. Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu are primarily striking schools (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1346436&postcount=2) Gyokko Ryu grappling is more geared to locking a person down as you strike them and Koto-ryu grappling is more to do with throwing people on their heads. Neither have the Judo-like submissions.

Lol, real Nin-Jew: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UinLk4yIxNQ&NR

Please keep in mind when you laugh at that dude that he is one of the last Jews in Germany.

Check another of his vids here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iy_EqmBwwE&mode=related&search=