[quote=Matt W.]Though I haven't experienced it myself, I have also heard of a style of Aikido (Tomiki?) that spars. quote]

There was some sparring in Tomiki aikido as I did it 20 years ago, but it was pretty light, and mainly aimed at tanto competition, where one had to avoid/disarm/control somebody wielding a wooden/ruber tanto. Gradings had unstructured 2:1 self defense and sparring. I've no idea what current practice is. I never reached Dan grade at aikido, but it saved me on two occasions - once from assault, and once from a head injury in a RTA (breakfalled safely off a bicycle), so I've always thought highly of it as a MA. Couldnt take the injuries from repeated breakfalls , however.

ok, i missed out on a bunch of pages...I just want to get something straight...

Who, if anyone, does NOT believe sparring of at least moderate contact is NECESSARY for adequate martial training?

If by "sparring" you mean typical light to no contact events I would need to take a pass.

If by "sparring" you mean moderate to heavy contact such as one might find in Kyokushinkai practice I think it has its place though I expect that different people will use different levels of authority. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

ok, i missed out on a bunch of pages...I just want to get something straight...

Who, if anyone, does NOT believe sparring of at least moderate contact is NECESSARY for adequate martial training?


[crickets chirping, tumbleweed blows by]


Sorry, Wolf, I don't think you're going to get any takers on that one.

Even if they believed it I don't think they would admit it publicly.

If by "sparring" you mean typical light to no contact events I would need to take a pass.

If by "sparring" you mean moderate to heavy contact such as one might find in Kyokushinkai practice I think it has its place though I expect that different people will use different levels of authority. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I mean moderate to hard, and I think it's it has more than just it's place. I personally don't think that the training can be considered "Martial" without it.

I mean moderate to hard, and I think it's it has more than just it's place. I personally don't think that the training can be considered "Martial" without it.


The problem with pushing hard sparring, is that a school owner is going to drastically limit their clientel by requiring it. At our school the sparring is described as a friendlygame of tag.

This wouuld be light at best, but will teach the small and timid the timing and tension of a conflict without doing physical damage.

I don't feel this to be very valuable to me or someone who would like to learn to really defend themselves, and so I approached the Chief Instructor, who is largely responsible for the sparring.

He told me that the students who are willing to raise the bar will let you know, and as your skills progress the sparring will become much more intense. I have seen a couple of these more dedicated students interacting, and It almost looked like they were pissed at each other. As the buzzer for the 3 minute round sounded, they bowed, touched gloves, and went over to the side to talk about the round. They are best of friends.

My rant was for the purpose of illustrating that although the "school" does not require hard sparring, as long as the skills can be learned there, like mided students can usually find a partner willing to cross hands with him, and the school can still have a broad clientel who don't have to worry about their well being.

[My style is Karate, my teacher earned her first couple of blackbelts in TKD, but left the assn for political reasons , one being lowering costs to the students, anothr being the ability to bring BJJ into the school and integrate some of that into the main curriculum.]

Ah, but my problem with the above is, that most schools don't even make harder contact sparring an option. At the very least it NEEDS to be an option at the schools. Then, from there, hopefully students will see why it is necesarry. I understand the problem school owners have with their patrons not wanting to get hit. However, somehow, for the training to be worth a damn people need to understand what it means to get hit.

I'm just going to say what I've been wanting to say for a while too. If implementing the above causes schools to close...FINE. There are too many damn worthless schools. The way the problem will be resolved isn't by changing the curriculum at all these schools. It's going to be educating the public as to why these schools are worthless. Then the public will realize that it's not worth their money, because they aren't learning anything usefull because they don't want to get hit, or they'll go to a school that teaches them what it means to get hit and deal with REAL confrontation.

If your martial arts school doesnt want to bring in sparring because it may loose clients, your school sucks, period.

As Wolf said, at least make it an option. Friday night fights for example. Every Friday night is hard contact sparring. At least once a week. Then those who are there for fitness can just take regular classes. Those who want real self defense can get that.

Ah, but my problem with the above is, that most schools don't even make harder contact sparring an option. At the very least it NEEDS to be an option at the schools. Then, from there, hopefully students will see why it is necesarry. I understand the problem school owners have with their patrons not wanting to get hit. However, somehow, for the training to be worth a damn people need to understand what it means to get hit.

I'm just going to say what I've been wanting to say for a while too. If implementing the above causes schools to close...FINE. There are too many damn worthless schools. The way the problem will be resolved isn't by changing the curriculum at all these schools. It's going to be educating the public as to why these schools are worthless. Then the public will realize that it's not worth their money, because they aren't learning anything usefull because they don't want to get hit, or they'll go to a school that teaches them what it means to get hit and deal with REAL confrontation.

I understand what you are saying and I agree. I just wanted to point out, however, that you seem to be discounting natural Human behavior.

It is within the nature of Human Beings to write checks with their intentions that their reality can't cash. A great many folks report that they want to learn a martial art, but quit when they find out that there is no easy way to do it. The more you raise the bar, the smaller the segment of the population you will keep. Its just that simple. In the end, the only folks who will stay are the ones disposed towards physicality and most of these will not need MA training half as much as the ones who quit. For instance, the large numbers of folks intersted in MMA seem to have contact sports background when they seek-out MMA resources. My guess is that they gravitate towards MMA as it relates closely to whatever skillset they developed in some other sport such as Football or Wrestling. This increases the chances of being successful ("a winner"). But how much does a person who is large and well-muscled need MA training as compared to someone who is not so developed? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

The warrior class never comprised 100% of any population, and never should.

Again, we put the cart before the horse. Contact sparring without first returning to the basics of power techniques in combination is a waste of time and effort. TKD is about a lot of power in a lot of punches and kicks. Punches and kicks without TKD's power is what a lot of people accuse it of being; watered down shotokan.

The mechanics involved in learning how to put that power into the techniques is a long process. It is for me anyway. It takes good instruction which I do not see a lot of out there today.

TKD doesn't need to change. It just needs to be TKD.


Keep in mind that I am only advocating (as far as changes go) the "readdition" (word?) of the techniques that were already present, in conjunction with more alive training.

Re introduce the techniques, and start a tourney set for them. This will facilitate the practice of the "new" techniques, and being a non-point sparring event, lead to better training practices.

I agree that TKD is an art of multiple punches and kicks, thats were its skills lie.

I understand what you are saying and I agree. I just wanted to point out, however, that you seem to be discounting natural Human behavior.

It is within the nature of Human Beings to write checks with their intentions that their reality can't cash. A great many folks report that they want to learn a martial art, but quit when they find out that there is no easy way to do it. The more you raise the bar, the smaller the segment of the population you will keep. Its just that simple. In the end, the only folks who will stay are the ones disposed towards physicality and most of these will not need MA training half as much as the ones who quit. For instance, the large numbers of folks intersted in MMA seem to have contact sports background when they seek-out MMA resources. My guess is that they gravitate towards MMA as it relates closely to whatever skillset they developed in some other sport such as Football or Wrestling. This increases the chances of being successful ("a winner"). But how much does a person who is large and well-muscled need MA training as compared to someone who is not so developed? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

But why bother having a school that's going to teach people things they can't use anyway. If someone doesn't want the hard contact, and they go to a school to learn to protect themselves that doesn't do contact or FULLY resistive training using REAL improvisation then what's really happening is they're being duped into thinking NOW they can protect themselves. Chances are they're now worse off than they were before, because they might not run from a situation they should, or they might not hand over their wallet at knife point like they SHOULD. This doesn't HAVE to be MMA. I think a TKD school could do what I've mentioned. There are plenty of fighters that are good enough, and just do standup.

But why bother having a school that's going to teach people things they can't use anyway. If someone doesn't want the hard contact, and they go to a school to learn to protect themselves that doesn't do contact or FULLY resistive training using REAL improvisation then what's really happening is they're being duped into thinking NOW they can protect themselves. Chances are they're now worse off than they were before, because they might not run from a situation they should, or they might not hand over their wallet at knife point like they SHOULD. This doesn't HAVE to be MMA. I think a TKD school could do what I've mentioned. There are plenty of fighters that are good enough, and just do standup.

I know what I am working to communicate but its not coming across very well. Let me use your first question to see if I can make this clearer.

"....But why bother having a school that's going to teach people things they can't use anyway....."

Because they don't honestly want to fight. Rather they are enamoured of the idea of being ABLE to fight. Its like those repeat celebrity marriages performed by folks don't really want to be married. They are just intrigued by the concept of marriage. Most of the MA schools here in the US are little more than childcare where people who have an illusion about what MA are about are indulged in return from paying out their money.

"...If someone doesn't want the hard contact, and they go to a school to learn to protect themselves that doesn't do contact or FULLY resistive training using REAL improvisation then what's really happening is they're being duped into thinking NOW they can protect themselves...."

I would not consider them "duped" as they are actually getting what they asked for and paid for. People know where to go to get solid and realistic training and isn't it amazing how they just happen to never quite make it to those locations. GIVE ME A BREAK! People know exactly what sort of place they are joining when they join-up. And the teacher knows exactly what corners he's cutting to keep the tuition coming in and the lights on.

I have said it before and continue to say that real MA training is NOT for everyone and never has been. But it would shoot holes in the commercial movement if this got around, so the idea keeps getting promoted that MA is something everyone can do! MA is, at its core, a contact art, and if people are not into making SOME sort of contact then I think they need to rethink their choice of activity, yes? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

glad2bhere, you appear to be advocating dumbing down martial arts training to the lower common denominator for commercial interest. Are you sure this is the right site for you?

I agree that there is plenty of room for all types of MA schools with all kinds of levels of training and contact. I do not have a problem with the idea that ANY MA has taken the low road toward low contact and/or highly restrictive sport (i.e. Olympic TKD).

The problem I have, and what I get on my sopabox about, is when those same schools that have chosen to market themselves toward the soccer-moms and their ilk tell their students that they are learning SD and fighting just like the hard contact schools. That is, imo, the highest evolution of bullshido and one of the the issues that we should be dealing with.

This site is loaded with nutriding and the opinion that arts other than MMA, MT and BJJ are all full of ****. This is not true, but I can cartainly understand why that opinion would permeate most of the debates and arguments here. Other MA, and KMA in particular, have not done enough to prove otherwise in the last couple of decades. In fact, they have done the opposite. But, not all schools are like the ones that we should be exposing and hammering.

It does not serve the MA community to paint criticisms with a broad brush. Again, if an instructor is honest with his students and explains that they are learning more of a sport and activity rather than a fighting system. I know of a couple of schools that actually do that. Their students are not the type that would go to a more hard-hitting combat oriented school. While I do not personally like what they teach and how it is done, I have nothing but respect for them and their students since they are trying something, rather than nothing. They know the limitations of what they are learning and they accept it. Even with those limitations, they are more capable of handling themselves in a panic situation than someone who has never trained and is very anti-MA and fighting. When they decide that they want to go harder, those instructors send them to schools like mine. And iMO, if it takes that student a long time, sometimes even years, to decide that they are ready to go harder, then kudos to the light contact school that got them started and guided them toward the tougher school.

Of course, that is not what we see here on this site. We see those that were in those BS schools and left when they realized they were getting the shaft. They now have a bad taste in their mouths re. those schools and naturally take the next step and decry the entire system. You out ther Upa? Sound framiliar? This does not make their opinion of the entire system correct.

At the same time, I know of an MMA gym that may have to add TMA and even- God forbid- kids classes to keep the gym viable and profit making. They really don't want to, but there are only so many folks that want to get into the cage. Most students are a lot of talk, but when push comes to shove, they run into the same hesitation and problems that students from hard-hitting TMA schools run into.

So, to say that all those schools that don't use hard contact should close is just wrong. To say that only those that train in a very narrow fashion have the right to claim real SD or fighting is also just wrong. Some of the toughest and best fighters have extensive training in KMA, CMA, OMA, etc. And they trainied traditionally. Modern training is great and has its place. I just believe that Bullshido is centered more in a lie, rather than in an art itself.

Can TKD and KMA be "saved"? I don't think it is broken. I just think that it is our job to educate the public as much as possible on the differences between those of us that do tougher classes and the light-duty guys- and step up to their bs and expose it as much as possible to the uneducated masses that are looking for a school.

There- rant done.

glad2bhere, you appear to be advocating dumbing down martial arts training to the lower common denominator for commercial interest. Are you sure this is the right site for you?


No, not dumbing down, but simply taking the KMA on their own terms. In my few years in the KMA I have met people who want to dress up the Korean arts in layers of revised history. Some people want to make the Koreans victims of Japanese imperialism, while others would like to serve-up all Koreans as descendents of an unrecognized race of warriors.

Fer crynout-loud why can't the KMA simply be seen for what they are instead of spinning them this way and that way. This is what I have advocated for quite a few years, now. Let's just take the KMA as they are-- warts and all. It seems like it is the vowed purpose of everyone who practices KMA to make them into something else, and the whole time I am waiting for people to come to a conclusion along these lines they STILL aren't walkin' it like their talkin' it! I would rather have a sound, middle-of-the-road art to practice than whip-up some fabulous history and purpose and have to spend the rest of my life rationalizing to others--- and myself. Thats why I wondered sometime back if it would not simply be enough for TKD to be the Korean equivalent of Muay Thai and leave it at that?Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce