Now, true, TKD was never intended as a form of combat, if truth be told (See: CHOI Hong Hi)


Really!! What truth is that? Please link what you are refering to, thanks.




Lets see if I understand.

Teach TKD as it was meant to be taught (SD oriented) and then let each person decide what techniques are best for him/her.

Teach them technique/power increase their flexibility, and then they will learn to use what they are capable of performing on a realistic basis.

Am I on track here?

It seems so. IMO, the actual club/school is where these issues lie. By making it the basis of the system everyone has to do it and as skills/levels increase different students will adopt strategies that suit them, with the tools they feel comfortable with, but with the same goal in mind - SD! The instructors job is to simply ensure they have enough tools to choose from, rather than sending them into to hammer a nail with a screwdriver!

By forcing a new form of competition it may actually change very little as a low percentage of students compete anyway and if it was indeed made tougher (for want of a better word) even less would do it for fear of injuries! Its okay discussing different style of comps, but most are already there and as someone pointed out, for FC fighting/striking theres little middleground unlike in BJJ comps that are FC in grappling but can easily remain pretty safe.

KK has both knockdown and clicker comps, which suit the different type of people. Many (ITF based) TKD comps these days are pretty heavy contact anyway (at least at BB levels), just the emphasis is not full contact and obviously the scoring system favours the use of different things like high kicks (with no grabs allowing them to try them). In my school we have varying forms of sparring, "points sparring" for beginners (which is also used in most ITF style comps at that level), "continous sparring" for everyone with the contact varying depending on the individuals and "traditional sparring" for more senior grades, which allows grabbing, knees and hard striking and varying other things that the students can alter as to how they want to tailor their training and also try out the cross-over techniques from "light continous" to see if they`d work for real!

We did traditional sparring last night.. and it can be pretty realistic but can be reasonibly safe and its great fun. I'm not interested in doing it in a tournament against some 20 year old (Im way past that), but as training I like it a lot. We now use MMA gloves in our traditional sparring which is great, though they hurt if the contact levels are high (though we usually limit it a bit on the ground for safety reasons). Even more so, with fellow students doing it, they can add a bit of common sense into it, ie. good ones can adjust the levels in order for someone to develop a bit. Ill try and get a video togethor of this if anyones interested.

Stuart

Ps. Points fighting can be slagged off, but though I keep the 'tap tap' stuff for the sporting area, look at some of the old Karateka (70s & 80s).. they were KO'ing all the time.. it has advantages if done right, as it does help with a certain type of timing! It just needs to have the back up of the rest (ie. fighting continuously with no/less restrictions)

PPs. Also, anyone remember Alfie Lewis.. the worlds No 1 points fighrer in the late 80's and 90's (even beat Steve "Nasty" Anderson").. point is, his training was mostly sport based for points fighting. Back in the 90's he was attacked by three guys, at the first punch (by the opponent), he slipped it and threw his own and killed the guy.. it does have advantages when trained properly. Im not saying on its own.. but just a part of training. BTW, the case was well documented in the MA press (UK) back when it happened.. I no longer have the mags myself but others who were around that time would have heard of it.

PPPs. Although this thread is mainly about making TKD more SD oriented, it seems no-one (except me) has so far discussed the use of a good self protection system, taught & in place!! In reality that means so far, all the discussions have simply been about fighting and fighting is only one part of self defence.. the part when everythings gone to **** and thats all you have left!

All I have been able to determine is that each time the bickering starts the productivity drops.

Good point Bruce and the main reason why I posted a bit at the beginning and have kept out of it pretty much after that.. all the bickering is simply non-productive and simply derails the discussion.

Stuart

You're more than welcome to stick around and discuss the matters. I for one would appreciate hearing the opinions of someone with more than 30 years experience.

Feel free to tear my **** apart. They're just my opinions. I'm always open to new ideas to think about.

Ditto!


For this sort of discussion, the more views the better!


Stuart

You're more than welcome to stick around and discuss the matters. I for one would appreciate hearing the opinions of someone with more than 30 years experience.

Feel free to tear my **** apart. They're just my opinions. I'm always open to new ideas to think about.


Hi Emboesso, thanks you made me smile and I appreciate that. You know I'm happy to discuss martial arts with anyone. I have learned many things doing just that. I listen to everyone, no matter style or rank. I have changed/modified many things over the years, just because of those discussions and workouts with other people.

I appreciate your offer and it is very nice, thank you. I started martial arts when I was 11 years old, I'm 47. It is a very wonderful thing the martial arts - all of them. But I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

Happy Day,

Mark

Ditto!


For this sort of discussion, the more views the better!


Stuart

Hi Stuart, you thoughts seem very familiar to me. But I think that all people in martial arts, eventually come to a fuller understanding, and that "truth" has to be fairly similar for all of us.

I want you to know that I haven't bought a martial arts book for the past 10 years at least, but I am really considering getting yours because I'm hoping that it might have somethings I need to know. That is my subtle attempt at a compliment :)

Have a nice day too buddy.

Mark

Again, let me stress that I do not have a dog in this particular discussion. What I am speaking from is a place in the Hapkido community.

What I can say is that for about 60 years--- beginning with CHOI Yong Sul teaching in 1947--- Modern Hapkido has only had TWO major improvements--- the expansion of the kicking curriculum (courtesy of Ji and Kim) and the institution of a Mu-Do approach to organizing the curriculum. Other than this there have been a LOT OF CHANGES but practically NO improvements! There have been a great many organizations added --- great and small. There have been thousands of seminars. There have been no end of promotions and recognitions. But, the the Hapkido arts for their part remain untouched.

In my small way I have sought to introduce change by working within the Hapkido community through concensus-building and the use of Reason over Emotion. I can tell you in all honesty and candor that the majority of the Hapkido community want nothing to do with what I am describing. I have received everything from "Don't bother me with the facts; I know what I believe" to "Who Cares!" In this last year I have finally capitulated and no longer seek out the Hapkido community for their in-put nor do I any longer care what they think. I share this personal information for three reasons.

First, I would not want anyone to repeat my mistake of the last few years. In the end it has been a study in frustration and self-abuse. The only thing that can be said of such a mistake is that people can learn from it, and I invite folks to do just that.

Secondly, I want folks to know that change IS possible, but the majority of folks will resist it even when it is for their own good. People fear change and will often punish anyone who advocates it. (Word to the wise.)

Lastly, I share this information because that which is not busy grow, is busy dying. These Korean traditions are a wonder to behold, but like grandma's silver need to be polished and cared for. Not so very many years from now I will need to give-up caring for these arts and they will pass to the next generation. I need to know that people can continue the "good work" with eyes and mind opened wide.

I hope these insights may be of use.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

LI Guy 1...Excellent post, this is what I like to hear. No, no shirt fights though. There are some people we DONT want to see shirtless.

emboesso.....Great post. I agree with you, its about returning to the fundamentals. TKD is a linear attacking art , that uses hard kicks and punches in combinations to take down an opponent.

What Oldman said.



It is becoming more and more clear that a new TKD style is needed.

I don't think its so much a matter of creating a new style of TKD, but rather encouraging a return to the fundamentals of TKD.

Branching off abit from Emboesso's ideas about trying to create a singel "style" of TKD as the problem, how about the problem being more in terms of the attempt to create a homogenized TKD in the name of unity? I think the forced unification of the Kwans was one of the beginning steps in the crapification of TKD (again, not saying that all TKD is crap - just that the majority of schools teach crap). Since it seems like we've opened up this can of worms more broadly, how about in addition to re-vamping competition rules to promote more practical fighing skills, bringing back the old kwan? Keep the WTF and, if they don't unify, the ITF as governing bodies for international competitions and as a regulatory board to oversee and recognize the kwan, but allow the individual kwan to set their own curriculum and certification. This would promote competition between styles within TKD and promote better technique and curricula.

If the WTF and ITF merge, one of problems they will face and one of the obstacles to this merger, is forms (poomsae/hyung). This of course was one of the main obstacles to the creation of TKD from the Tang Soo Do and Kong Soo Do kwans back in the '60s and one of the reasons why this unification was only partially successful. Why should there only be one set of forms for all of TKD? Why not allow each kwan to adopt its own set of forms? If someone wants to move from one kwan to another, they would of course have to learn a whole new set of forms to advance in the new kwan, but I think that would be a good thing, not a bad thing.

Again, from what I've read, the WTF and ITF (DPRK branch) are ever more likely to merge with the Beijing Olympics on the horizon. The committee that both orgs have established to negotiate this merger are looking at a total revamp of comepetition rules and will also take up the thorny issue of forms. Perhaps a bit of grass roots letter writing from TKD dojangnim and others urging a return to a rule set that encourages a more practical fighting style could bear some fruit at this time.

Hi Stuart, you thoughts seem very familiar to me. But I think that all people in martial arts, eventually come to a fuller understanding, and that "truth" has to be fairly similar for all of us.
Not all people Im afraid, as many almost fall over the truth, stumble a little and just keep on walking!



I want you to know that I haven't bought a martial arts book for the past 10 years at least, but I am really considering getting yours because I'm hoping that it might have somethings I need to know. That is my subtle attempt at a compliment :)
Thnaks.. if you do I'd be interested on your views on it. I think only one poster on this thread has a copy.. much of what this thread is about is already touched upon in the book!


Stuart

I don't think its so much a matter of creating a new style of TKD, but rather encouraging a return to the fundamentals of TKD.

Yup, yup, yup.. as well as utilizing the whole system, rather than the parts that just help to win medals!



1. Emphasizing the importance of physical conditioning.
Definatly.. "Fit to Fight" is a good term to use. We often do an hour per class of just fitness conditioning and/or body conditioning.. its important and most students dont do anything like that outside of a class!




Stuart

Then the world can finally witness the true superiority of Chung Do Kwan over Moo Duk Kwan!!!! (sinister evil laugh) BWA HHAAHAHAHAHAHA!

But Ji Do Kwan will once again reign supreme! Mwahahaha! :ohyeah:

Again? Hmmmm, I musta missed it the first time around.

Eearly and mid '60s in Korea before the unification.

(takes a fighting stance and says in a badly dubbed John Wayne sounding voice) "So, your Chung Do Kwan style is pretty good, but its no match for my Ji Do Kwan. I have eaten nothing but cold rice for a year now since you killed my master. Now prepare to die!"

Oldman34, what the hell is your problem.

Im an asshole.



I backed away from the fight you seem to just want to go on with, and talked very nicely and decently to you. Yet here it is another day and you just want to throw the **** around again.

What fight?



There never has been anyone that questioned my rank, except for you loud mouth.

Please show me where I questioned your rank. I dont give a flying **** about your rank.



So I will say it again, if you believe in yourself, your opinion so much. Come work out with me. I'm not talking about beating you down, which I think would be quiet easy to do. i'm giving you a chance to put some real **** behind your bullshit words. Of course you won't, can't, etc - because you are all about the talking. Everyone can see this, and you just think you look so pretty with all the bullshit hanging on you, lol.

Here is how it works. YOU just challenged me. You come to me.
However, if that isnt possible, we can set up a mutually attendable Bullshido Throwdown, and YOU can back up your threats. Hows that big boy? Or are you "all about the talk"?

To quote a good movie "Im your huckleberry"

I think you just let your alligator mouth overload your chipmunk ass.



And to think you are raising 4 children up to be like this, is really a scarey thought.

Leave my kids out of this ************.



I think you are the problem with parents today. How does that sit with you? It is very clear now that you are the problem with parenting today. It is very clear that your children should be taken away from you and raised with good manners. It is clear that you have children, so you can raise an army of morons. It is time that they get some real life training and not the lies you have been telling them. I think we can institute a Pressure Testing for parents. Successful parents will inteview people like you, find you lacking, and then you don't get to be a parent. We need to get back to what parenting really was about. Do you have 4 kids so you can get more welfare money?

Atlanta Throwdown good for you cocksucker?
Keep talking about my kids and it will only get worse when we meet.



How do you like personal attacks on you butthead? Not very nice is it. Well I think of my students as my family. I don't lie to them, I don't lie to anyone. I'm done letting you insult me, my school and my students. I tried to show you a decent way, and you reject it. So I reject you. You have nothing worthwhile to say or for me to listen to. Please leave TKD as soon as possible, you give the rest of us a bad name.

Hey fuckstick, talking about your bullshit McDojo is one thing, talking about me is ok too, talking about my kids, is gonna get your ass beat.

Set it up. Put up or shutup *****.

Your move.

BTW, I have left TKD, because it is full of bullshit, and McDojos, JUST LIKE YOURS.
It is also full of pussies who think they can fight. I bet you fall into that category.

So here is how it goes. You dropped a challenge, this means here on Bullshido that you have to come to me.
I doubt that you will because you are punk ass bitch who attacks peoples children when they shove the truth in your face.
Just because YOU got duped all these years by bogus bullshit TKD McDojos doesnt mean I have.

So **** you, and your stupid McDojo, where you spout the tenets of TKD and make the kids call you MR. Karasek. Where you charge too much for the false sense of security you give your srudents when you "claim" to be undefeated in a fight.
You say that you dont have any stripes on your belt, but then you mention that you could have tested for your 5th degree. When we meet, I will show you how much good that BB in TKD does you. All five degrees of it.

Im an asshole.



What fight?



Please show me where I questioned your rank. I dont give a flying **** about your rank.



Here is how it works. YOU just challenged me. You come to me.
However, if that isnt possible, we can set up a mutually attendable Bullshido Throwdown, and YOU can back up your threats. Hows that big boy? Or are you "all about the talk"?

To quote a good movie "Im your huckleberry"

I think you just let your alligator mouth overload your chipmunk ass.



Leave my kids out of this ************.



Atlanta Throwdown good for you cocksucker?
Keep talking about my kids and it will only get worse when we meet.



Hey fuckstick, talking about your bullshit McDojo is one thing, talking about me is ok too, talking about my kids, is gonna get your ass beat.

Set it up. Put up or shutup *****.

Your move.

BTW, I have left TKD, because it is full of bullshit, and McDojos, JUST LIKE YOURS.
It is also full of pussies who think they can fight. I bet you fall into that category.

So here is how it goes. You dropped a challenge, this means here on Bullshido that you have to come to me.
I doubt that you will because you are punk ass bitch who attacks peoples children when they shove the truth in your face.
Just because YOU got duped all these years by bogus bullshit TKD McDojos doesnt mean I have.

So **** you, and your stupid McDojo, where you spout the tenets of TKD and make the kids call you MR. Karasek. Where you charge too much for the false sense of security you give your srudents when you "claim" to be undefeated in a fight.
You say that you dont have any stripes on your belt, but then you mention that you could have tested for your 5th degree. When we meet, I will show you how much good that BB in TKD does you. All five degrees of it.

Glad you left TKD. Did all of us a big service. Now try shutting your mouth and let the adults speak.

Glad you left TKD. Did all of us a big service. Now try shutting your mouth and let the adults speak.


So I take it that you are all talk?


which I think would be quiet easy to do. i'm giving you a chance to put some real **** behind your bullshit words. Of course you won't, can't, etc - because you are all about the talking.


I accepted that chance. When do you want to do this?

You are a coward. Continue to hide behind your stripes and tenets, and talk about how you are undeafeated in t3h str33t, while you bleed your students dry.


So I ask you again.....Are you all talk?

So I take it that you are all talk?

[/color]


I accepted that chance. When do you want to do this?

You are a coward. Continue to hide behind your stripes and tenets, and talk about how you are undeafeated in t3h str33t, while you bleed your students dry.


So I ask you again.....Are you all talk?


You have already been invited to come to my school to train. The invitation is open to anyone. I will work with, or spar with anyone. I always have.

Last night I asked the advanced class their opinion about SD, training, TKD, etc with this trhead in mind. They felt generally that the techniques are just fine, but in regular class there was not much application of the techniques. They enjoyed the self-defense drills that I give them in the advance class, but felt it was more a mental preperation for SD rather than learning specific moves to end a fight. I was very happy to hear this, since that is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish. I tell you this, because even though I don't like you, I wanted to make sure that I hadn't overlooked something with the people that I do care about, my students.

Yes, I'm all talk - you got me oldman34. Never done anything of any value in the martial arts. Now will you go away?

You have already been invited to come to my school to train. The invitation is open to anyone. I will work with, or spar with anyone. I always have.

Last night I asked the advanced class their opinion about SD, training, TKD, etc with this trhead in mind. They felt generally that the techniques are just fine, but in regular class there was not much application of the techniques. They enjoyed the self-defense drills that I give them in the advance class, but felt it was more a mental preperation for SD rather than learning specific moves to end a fight. I was very happy to hear this, since that is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish. I tell you this, because even though I don't like you, I wanted to make sure that I hadn't overlooked something with the people that I do care about, my students.

Yes, I'm all talk - you got me oldman34. Never done anything of any value in the martial arts. Now will you go away?

You are a coward, and a liar.

You are a disgrace to MA's.

Please do not derail this thread any further. If you want to discuss it, do it here.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1364045#post1364045

Its all about you being a coward. Have fun.