I have a polite suggestion for all: Please stop saying stupid things about grappling in this thread. This thread is not about grappling. This thread is about TKD and how to fix it. I don't want to derail your thread anymore than it already has been. Even worse, I don't want it to come down to a moderator having to cut 75% of the thread out and toss it into the abyss, but if you don't stop, that's the direction we're heading in.

Well I wasnt refering to you in particular but seeing as you refered directly to my post..


This is why I said to stop the stupidity. Im not bashing anyone in particular, but martial arts are about fighting.We all agre to some extent on that.
Fighting forms part of martial arts.. not everything, but yes, we all seem to agree a bit. But fighting isnt the only form of SD, despite what you may believe. When i posted my last post, everyone seemed to be discussing what we term "match fightimg".. where two people square up and go for it.. this is not self defence, simply fighting and the average Joe isnt gonna do this!


Self defence is about dealing with a confrontation. It primarily involves the what if. What if you are in a bad situation. You tried to run but cant. You call for help but cant. You are forced to fight (defend yourself). You do not first go through your self defense moves and then if that doesnt work spar with the guy.
Why do.. if Im grabbed and kick someone in the nutz.. he lets goa and I can run.. that is self defence.. that is not fighting!


Thats silly and just mixing words.
Nope.. its how self protection experts decribe the tactics that should be used (not me, them aka Geoff Thompson etc.).. but you feel their 300+ fights and situations are just silly!


Sparring is the training tool you use to perfect your fighting ability (self defense)
Until you can disimilate the difference between self defence and fighting..this is a mute discussion! If you want to believe they are one and the same, thats fine though.. Im not trying to educate you!


1 step does not train the reflexes better then sparring.
It may or may not..it trains 1st response.. and a good reaction to a 1st response can end a fight!


Unless your one step is random, continous and with power AKA sparring, its not building up the refelxes the way sparring does. It may help, but it doesnt come close.
AFAIC they train different areas towards the same goal. If you dont like it.. fine.. dont train it!


This is your fantasy world. Good self defense should finish in a few blows. Thats great but not realistic.
Fantasy world lol.. I suggest you do your research better.. again, I still think its because your not seperating fighting from good self defence!


What happens when the other guy fights back.
Like I said.. thats wehn your sparring/figting skills come into play! I`ll ask you a question..What happens if talk them down? thats a self protection skill.. do you fight them anyway or do you line them up and use a pre-emptive strike instead? A pre-emptive strike is a fight finisher if done correctly, at the very least it leads you an advantage!



They both throw a few blows. Who wins? Under your reasoning anyone of them could because it should end in a few blows.
Again, you seem to be confusing self defence with fighting!


Most fight do not end in a few blows. they continue on and on.
Thats funny, except for a few drunken nobs rolling about like idiots, most fights Ive seen or been unfortunate enough to be part of do.. and funnily enough, with the Geoff Thompson example above, mosted ended in 1 blow! And hes considered one of the foremost self protection experts int he world.. even the Machado's get him into teach them SD.. though you know better I guess!


Also, to state that you try to end it in a few blows unlike those sport guys is not right. In any full contact event, wrestling or BJJ, you try to win as fast as possible. To dominate your opponent.
Who mentioned sport guys.. I thought we were discussing self defence!! Against, it seems you cannot sepeate the two.. in fact this point shows you cannot!


In my BJJ class I work to dominate and sub a guy as quick as possible.
Good for you, I guess you`ll be blocking his mates boot with your teeth then!


A 7 stone woman should not launch into a fight if she thinks shes being followed. When did I ever say that?
Because you dont seperate self protection, self defence and fighting - to you they are the same.. all you advocate are fighting skills!


But if she is forced to fight, she beter know how, be used to aggressive, powerful hits and know what to do.
Exactly the point i made. but the point you missed was that if she utilise the stuff I emntioned .. she may not be forced to fight.. in SD.. fighting is last resort.. not the first or only response!


Sparring does that. It just turns on and you do exactly what you would do under sparring conditions and it works because you do this every day and control your adrenaline.
Sorry,. the adrenaline fostered in a club sparring or rolling with you pals is no where near what is built up on a street confrontation, a competition is better but still way off!


Stuart

When a person comes in to the school for the first time, they have some ability to fight naturally, doesn't everyone? Grappling is a natural path that people take, I don't know, maybe it comes from when we are babies and learn to grasp onto people for safety. And there is nothing wrong with teaching take downs, throws, etc - but they rarely end the fight and you have to follow up with something anyhow. So I want my students to never have to be on the ground or grappling in the first place.
Grappling on the ground is not usually a choice, regardless of what you envision for your students. It is easier to fall down than up.


If you are looking to turn anyone into a self-defense person, then show them finger strikes to the eyes, groin kick, punch to the face and maybe some kick to the knee. Have them train for 6 months only on this, and there you go, self defense oriented martial art.
That's only going to stunt their development as a fighter. On that list, only the punch to the face can be trained with any real safety and without grappling they will not understand when they do or do not have the leverage and positioning to apply any of those tactics.

If you'd like, I could try to hook your school up with someone from our Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu association who would be qualified to teach both grappling and self-defence.

Do these forums always turn into this type of bitch session? I started reading the first 10 or 15 entries and it seemed like it was heading towards, TKD is not a viable self-defense art and this is what we should do to improve it. I only wanted to add my experience, and the experiences of others that I know of, not read about or heard about, but was there to see. I had traditional, standard, whatever term you want to use, training in TKD. My ability to defend myself in a real fight has been proven, at least to myself. So I wanted to add my opinion that it is just training methods that need improving, not changes. Maybe that is a change.

But this discussion goes everywhere, into grappling, tournaments, full contact, etc, etc. There is a difference between self defense and sparring. But it is all training, and there are benefits accross the board for whatever you are trying to develope yourself into.

Please just let me say, I had the type of training that seems to be in discussion here, and I have not had any problem in self-defense. Whether I can knock someone out with one technique or not, maybe that isn't the point. I have never lost a fight or even been close to losing. I credit this to my traditional training and not to a specific self-defense program. I am glad to disucss, without the insults, anyone's point of view. But when you tell me to get my head out of my ass and other things of that nature - I defend myself. And isn't that what you are talking about in the first place??

Yes, they do. A lot of TKD people here like to act like French Collaborationists and turn on their own kind to score points with the "cool kids" who really don't know anything about TKD beyond it not working too well in the UFC.

Generally speaking, those collaborationists themselves don't know much more about TKD either, probably coming out of McDojangs themselves.


You are the type of TKDoer that perpetuates the uselessness of TKD. I know quite a bit about TKD. You however dont seem to by your posts.

There is a glaring hole in TKD as a viable SD art. If you cant see this then go elsewhere. I have no reason to appease the "cool kids".

You have added nothing to this thread. Please take the babbling elsewhere.


Do these forums always turn into this type of bitch session? I started reading the first 10 or 15 entries and it seemed like it was heading towards, TKD is not a viable self-defense art and this is what we should do to improve it. I only wanted to add my experience, and the experiences of others that I know of, not read about or heard about, but was there to see. I had traditional, standard, whatever term you want to use, training in TKD. My ability to defend myself in a real fight has been proven, at least to myself. So I wanted to add my opinion that it is just training methods that need improving, not changes. Maybe that is a change.

Bullshido's moto, is Pics or video or it didnt happen. You can come here and tell tall tales all day long. It wont change the fact that TKD needs a revamp. Your ideas of eye gouges and the like, coupled with you and your students "undefeated" fight status screams bullshit.

Yes, the training methods need improving. They also need to be taught as they were originally intended. Sweeps, knees, elbows, retention strikes. To make it a more viable SD art then some BASIC ground techniques are necessary. To say otherwise is to delude yourself, and mislead your students.

I have outlined what I mean by BASIC ground stuff. Again, if you want more Ground skills...take a GROUND/GRAPPLING art.

So, if you want to continue in your fantasy that you dont need to learn takedown defenses then go right ahead. I will meet you at a Throwdown and show you the error of your ways.

Both emboesso AND markkarasek, please refrain from any further derailing of this thread. Add something productive in a coherent manner, or leave. Simple as that.

Garbanzo Bean, the onyl reason I refer to grappling in my posts is because of the training methods used. Its where I come from and can make examples of the training and how it could be done for any art.

Garbanzo Bean, the onyl reason I refer to grappling in my posts is because of the training methods used. Its where I come from and can make examples of the training and how it could be done for any art.I understand. Believe me, I understand. I have wanted to jump in and bite people's heads off for the stupid **** they've said about grappling on this thread more than once. This is me, asking you as a favor to me, to let it go for now. It will be dealt with later.

This thread is ostensibly about fixing TKD. Let's keep it that way, huh? OldMan has included no offensive crappling technique in his plan for fixing his martial art of choice thus far. DHS is tentatively supportive, but wavering based on other members' posts, which is why I stepped in and asked for a cease and desist on crappling discusssion.

Edit: Also, that warning wasn't directed at you.

:bowdown:


Cease & desist orders respected.

Bows to mighty DHS, drinks kool-aid and waits.....

In other words np.

This is from the guy who thought Chon Ji was a tae geuk form?

Yeah, you're quite the authority.


Ok, for the last time. STOP DERAILING THIS THREAD.

I NEVER said that Chon Ji was a taegeuk form. You can PM me the quote. Dont start something you cant finish, here.

If you feel that we need to determine "what TKD is" then start a thread. I will be happy to particiapte in that. Better yet , I WILL DO IT. Here...


http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1358498#post1358498


However, most of us already know what TKD is. An unrealistic approach to SD. TKD has its inherent flaws just like any other MArtial Art. Yet, to change the art , or return it to its original SD aspect, we must first ADMIT the flaws. Unfortunetly a majority of the problem is in the removal of the SD aspects for McDojo Moms and their kids.

The next glaring problem is the training methods. Less emphasis on belts, and more on the "art". Less emphasis on forms and more on sparring. (Realistic sparring, no point sparing crap)

I and others have outlined a way that we think this needs to be done. Please go back and read the summary posts. Comment on those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman34

I am not WTF, but we did learn the Tae gyuk forms. We are an offshoot fo ATF.

I had to learn the meanings of each form. Kind of cool, but gay in a way.

Chon-ji....Literally means heaven and earth....etc etc etc.


I asked for a PM. Not here asshole.

To facilitate the bringing of this thread back on topic, we must look at what inherently makes TKD, less than ideal for SD. Keep in mind that the opinion I just stated is NOT indicative of all TKD styles, or Schools.

Also remember, we are not discussing McDojo's or the thousands of belts one must sometime achieve on their journey to BB. We are taking an in depth, HONEST look at what has caused the SD aspect of TKD to disappear, and what changes are needed to bring back the SD aspect. Be it starting a new sub style of TKD, or what have you.

We are also not discussing the 1 million year old history of TKD. We all know that its current incarnation is about 40 years old. While its roots may go back further, that is being discussed quite well on another thread in this forum


1. Weak sparring practices.
Point sparring is the norm. To win at point sparring, you must simply throw your technique faster than your opponent. (All things such as physical size being equal) Power, and technique are secondary in this situation.
2. The watering down of the art to better meet the needs of the masses.
This can be translated as McDojoism. I have been to/visited/took classes at, many TKD schools in my area, and just beyond.
While some are worse than others, a sense of McDojoism exists in all of them. Even my current school is beginning to swing that way a little too much for my liking. Hence the reason I started this thread.
I have also attended a Kenpo school, and they had they same prevailing trend towards the McDojo.
2a. What the masses want.
The art is watered down because people focus too much on the BB as a source of SD skill. As we all know a BB means very little in this day and age in many MA's.
People dont want little johnny or little suzie getting a black eye so they complain when their child is handled a little too roughly by another student. In this day and age, lawsuits are prevelent. parents will sue for just about anything, iregardless of the fact that their child is takeing a MA.
So to keep the customers happy, the dojo owner, begins to water down the art. This usually includes attaching more importance to the point sparring/kata/wepaons aspect of the tournaments. People equate trophies with SD/MA skill.
Parents want to brag about their kids. Nothing wrong with that. Therefore, they want their children to win at tournaments so they can say.."Well my boy won first place in sparring this weekend" To the uninitiated that conjures up a picture of ACTUAL SPARRING.
3. Tournaments and how they affect SD.

As you read above, people equate tournament trophies with MA/SD skills. I have a few first place trophies for point sparring, and forms. I have a myriad of other trophies that fall into the second and third place category.
Now the more people hold trophies in esteem, the more the art suffers for SD
By changing the art itself, and focusing more on the SD aspect of it, then the tourneys will follow suit. If someone starts "reintroducing" the lost aspects of TKD, and people begin to take this new direction, then naturally, they will want to pressure test it. (I make the assumption that people who start taking it for SD will see the need to) This will lead to some form of new rule set, and tourney organization.
4. Is a new style of TKD needed?

I feel that the answer here is yes. TKD is so looked down on by others, that some people would say "Why take TKD? People say it sucks." This will keep someone from taking TKD, because they feel that their BB will not be taken seriously.
Starting a new style of TKD, isnt really that far fetched. As I have said before, there are many different styles of Karate, Jujitsu, Kung Fu, and so on.
5. What Taekwondo is/isn't.

TKD is a stand up art. There are sweeps in it yes, but the point of those sweeps is to put your opponent on the ground to facilitate an advantageous position.
TKD isnt a ground fighting/submission/grappling art. I cant say this enough....If you want to learn to grapple, crosstrain in Judo/BJJ/Sambo whatever.
6. What do we need to add/take away?

TKD needs to bring back the knees, elbows, sweeps, and retention strikes, that it has had from the start. They are in the patterns/kata/forms that curently exist in the ITF.
TKD also needs to add some form of ground survival skills. Again, I am NOT advocating the teaching of grappling and submissions in TKD. WHat I am refering to is the basic skills to get someone off of you, or disengage from a ground fight, and take it back to a standing fight. Shrimping is an EXCELLENT means of this.
TKD needs to add takedown defense, such as a sprawl, or what have you. This will help someone counter a sweep/takedown by another TKDer. It is a necessary addition, becaus we are bringing back offensive, sweeps/takedowns.
TKD needs to take away the high spinning kicks, as part of the SD aspect. Spinning kicks, yes. They can be used as a tactic, if you feel that you need to strike first. High head kicks, yes. Of course all of that will come out in the wash, when it is pressure tested, AFTER we decide on a basic curriculum.
7. After starting our new style, how do we prevent it from slipping away too?

For our discussion lets use Brazilian Jujitsu as a model. While relatively new to the US, it has been practiced worldwide for many years. People hold it in high esteem for one reason. It works. It hasnt begun to be watered down, to the point that TKD has because its practitioners wont let it. They have to EARN their BB (this isnt to say that I or others didnt EARN their BB in TKD) in an alive pressure testing environment. If you are training in a BJJ McDojo (they exist I am sure) then when you show up for a competition (pressure testing) it will show.
A proper TKD organization, and tourney Organization is needed to keep things in line. While the Org. cant control all of the schools out there, it can offer a good and consitent pressure testing environment where there affilites can compete. As The Gracies have said.."The proof is in the pudding"
If you feel that your school or organization has t3h r34l TKD. Please step up. However, be prepared to show us videos of what you do, and links to the school. Dont drag your instructor/school owner into a fight they didnt want.

Start another thread on it.


Just a repost to bring us back on topic.

oldman34, your lack of respect tells me almost everything I need to know about what kind of person you are. But it is possible that I have misjudged you. Actually to be honest I find you offensive in the way you speak to people. I know what would happen if this was face to face, either the tone would remain civil or we would be into it. This is not some challange to you, but I'm talking about respect.

Part of the fustration comes because these are only words here. When I started in martial arts we respected rank, we believed in it. As I traveled around the country, I found that rank didn't always have the same value. In fact I have been shocked more than once by people claiming such high rank, and seeming so little to back it up.

I'm not trying to derail this thread. I read the first 2 or 3 pages of posts and then the last couple before I posted - I think the post I started with was staying on topic. Is this post only for people that agree with you? Are you saying that someone that doesn't agree with you, has no voice hear?

Anyhow, I would like to ask you, this is a request, not a challange.... to tell me about your TKD training. What do you feel makes you qualified to be an expert on TKD. I started Judo in 1971, I studied until 1978, making shodan in that time. I was also a junior olympic champion in Judo. In 1976 I started TKD and currently I'm a 5th degree. I also have a 1st degree in TangSooDo. I have owned, operated, or been the head instructor in many different schools. I am happy to provide a list of those schools should anyone want or need them.

You made some statement that without photos or videos you think I could be bullshitting. They didn't even have video cameras in the days I was fighting. I have some photos of me in tournaments if that's what you would like to see. But I was talking about real fights, not tournaments. And my statement was that I have never lost a real fight (I have lost plenty of tournament matches), and any of my students had never lost a real fight (the ones that I know of anyhow). I don't think that is some outlandish statement that is so hard to believe.

But I invite you to come and train with me, work out. My point and I don't think this is de-railing anything, is that you feel TKD needs to be changed, and I don't. I offer my opinion, my proof in whatever way I can to validate my point. I realize that the offer of training with me is not very possible, we all have lives. If it was easy for me, I would come to you. But I work 6 days a week in the TKD school. But the offer stands, or if you would like to discuss real points of martial arts, fine. I have provided real information about myself. A search of Yahoo will turn up my name and some of the things I have accomplished in my life. Would you like to share you real name, photos, evidence of your ability and skills to me?

oldman34, your lack of respect tells me almost everything I need to know about what kind of person you are. But it is possible that I have misjudged you. Actually to be honest I find you offensive in the way you speak to people. I know what would happen if this was face to face, either the tone would remain civil or we would be into it. This is not some challange to you, but I'm talking about respect.

Respect is earned.
It seems like a challenge. I wouldnt be any different in person. I have no need to be. So stop the slanted threats of "we would be into it." I offered you a chance, you have declined.

Stop derailing this thread with this ****.




Part of the fustration comes because these are only words here. When I started in martial arts we respected rank, we believed in it. As I traveled around the country, I found that rank didn't always have the same value. In fact I have been shocked more than once by people claiming such high rank, and seeming so little to back it up.

Rank means little here. It is given out to easily, so now a BB in certain arts means almost nothing. TKD is becoming or has already become one of these arts.



I'm not trying to derail this thread. I read the first 2 or 3 pages of posts and then the last couple before I posted - I think the post I started with was staying on topic. Is this post only for people that agree with you? Are you saying that someone that doesn't agree with you, has no voice hear?

You need to read ALL of this thread. Then post. SD is more than eye gouges and groin strikes. It is a SYSTEM, and a way of training. Thats what I am trying to do here. TKD can be much more than it is/has become.

Much of what you say has been said a thousand times, I have heard it all before. If you have t3h r34l TKD then step up. Prove to me that we dont need to revamp TKD.

You havent done that. You have made wild ass unsubstatiated claims of you and your students NEVER losing a "real fight". You also stated that you have won your fights without taking a hit.

This screams bullshit. It makes me turn a deaf ear to your posts.



Anyhow, I would like to ask you, this is a request, not a challange.... to tell me about your TKD training. What do you feel makes you qualified to be an expert on TKD. I started Judo in 1971, I studied until 1978, making shodan in that time. I was also a junior olympic champion in Judo. In 1976 I started TKD and currently I'm a 5th degree. I also have a 1st degree in TangSooDo. I have owned, operated, or been the head instructor in many different schools. I am happy to provide a list of those schools should anyone want or need them.

I didnt say I was na expert on TKD. Where did I say that?
I started this thread for REALISTIC input on the subject of revamping TKD to be more SD oriented.

Being an Instructor means very little if you have been teaching at a McDojo. I didnt ask for your credentials. I expressed EXTREME doubt at your fight experiences.



You made some statement that without photos or videos you think I could be bullshitting. They didn't even have video cameras in the days I was fighting. I have some photos of me in tournaments if that's what you would like to see. But I was talking about real fights, not tournaments. And my statement was that I have never lost a real fight (I have lost plenty of tournament matches), and any of my students had never lost a real fight (the ones that I know of anyhow). I don't think that is some outlandish statement that is so hard to believe.


See.....? This is absurd.

Here. I am a 7th degree BB who has been in at least 30 fights on t3h str33t. I have won all of them. Half of them involved some type of clinching attack by my opponent, which led to an attempt at a takedown.

What? You dont believe me? Why not? I SAID I did.




But I invite you to come and train with me, work out. My point and I don't think this is de-railing anything, is that you feel TKD needs to be changed, and I don't. I offer my opinion, my proof in whatever way I can to validate my point.

Great, you dont think it needs to be changed. Please tell me WHY you think this. Dont site unverifiable fights as a source for your argument.



I realize that the offer of training with me is not very possible, we all have lives. If it was easy for me, I would come to you. But I work 6 days a week in the TKD school. But the offer stands, or if you would like to discuss real points of martial arts, fine.

Why would I want to waste training time in an unrealistic atmosphere? It would be counterproductive for me.



provided real information about myself. A search of Yahoo will turn up my name and some of the things I have accomplished in my life. Would you like to share you real name, photos, evidence of your ability and skills to me?

I am not the one making wild ass claims of invincibility.

I dont wish to share my identity with the thousands of wackos out there, Some people on this site, know me, and have talked to me face to face, and via phone.

I have offered you a safe way for us to meet, and pit our varying views of SD against each other. You have declined.

Oldman34, I have repeatedly tried to be reasonable with you. If you are not going to show any respect, if you are not going to believe any statements, then why should I belive one word that you have to say. You show none of the qualities that I have found to be a part of any real martial artist.

Once again I challange you to provide me with proof of your training, your rank, your experience, etc - ANYTHING. Got it? I can and will provide you with anything that you ask if it is possible. If you are not willing to tell me your name, your experience so that I have some basis to know who I'm talking to besides a loud mouth, then you are right it's a waste of time.

Oldman34, I have repeatedly tried to be reasonable with you. If you are not going to show any respect, if you are not going to believe any statements, then why should I belive one word that you have to say. You show none of the qualities that I have found to be a part of any real martial artist.

What respect have you EARNED from me?
Real Martial Artist? Spare me, by trying to appeal to my "MArtial Artist" values. I dont really have any. I train to defend myself, NOT to learn honor, integrity, perseverance, indomitable spirit, and so on.

You havent been reasonable. You have derailed this thread. Being reasonable would be staying on TOPIC.

Instead of trying to flame me (you arent doing so good) List why you think TKD is fine just the way it is. Break down my points and discuss them.

I dont care if you disagree, I just want to hear you actually post something besides "eye gouges, groin strikes and biting". You said that you could train someone for 6 months in these technoiques and they would be able to defend themselves.

I accepted that challenge. You have declined.

You have two choices here.

1. Discuss the topic at hand, by listing point by point why you think TKD is fine, and list VERIFIABLE proof of claims.
2. Put up or shutup.

I would say that I hate to be a jerk here, but I dont. I feel that your "stick your head in the sand and pretend that everything is peachy keen" approach is what is hurting people who want to take TKD for self defense. It retards the process of change. I reposted my points. Please feel free to read them and DISCUSS the issue at hand.



Once again I challange you to provide me with proof of your training, your rank, your experience, etc - ANYTHING. Got it?

I am not sure WHY I have to provide these things? I dont know you, I dont know if you are who you say you are. WHy should I give you any personal info about me? Got it?

No one else here has asked for that info. Why should it matter anyway?



I can and will provide you with anything that you ask if it is possible. If you are not willing to tell me your name, your experience so that I have some basis to know who I'm talking to besides a loud mouth, then you are right it's a waste of time.

I want you to provide me with proof that you and your students have successfully defended yourself using TKD, AND didnt even get hit once. Until you can prove that then, you cant use it as a basis of argument.

Oh, wait....You cant provide that proof? What a shock that is.

All of your black belt ranks and so on DO NOT IMPRESS ME. I know BB's that cant kick above their waist. Hell, my SON has a BB in TKD. He is 9. So thats where I stand on BB's.

Arguments/Discussions are based on FACTS. You havent presented any. Your argument is based on unsubstatiated "facts" that YOU could be lying about. I find the claim you made hard to believe.

Loud mouth? There you go with the insults again. Do you think I am six and can be goaded into something?

If you want proof of my training, AND my respect, then feel free to attend a Throwdown. Other than that, you sure as hell arent getting my respect, you havent earned it, and I am not telling you ANY personal info about me.

I will be happy to provide any proof that you ask to a Bullshido Mod, such as Samuel Browning, (he already has plenty of my personal info, so I dont mind giving him a little more) but you arent getting anything.

MarkK, I know that rank was not easily attained in the 1970s. The reality of today is that you're talking with people who got their first dans in two or three years and began teaching at that point.

Its a different world out there now. Some TKD needs changing, some does not. I'll venture a guess that yours does not. You can look at the videos on Stuart's website and see his TKD is also pretty solid.

Discussions about some kind of monolithic entity called "TKD" are absurd, and anyone with even the most fundamental working knowledge of TKD would know that.

Which one of the points I have mentioned here.

Is a new style of TKD needed for people who seek the SD aspect of TKD?

I also said (it seems that you dont read much).....


To facilitate the bringing of this thread back on topic, we must look at what inherently makes TKD, less than ideal for SD. Keep in mind that the opinion I just stated is NOT indicative of all TKD styles, or Schools.

Also remember, we are not discussing McDojo's or the thousands of belts one must sometime achieve on their journey to BB. We are taking an in depth, HONEST look at what has caused the SD aspect of TKD to disappear, and what changes are needed to bring back the SD aspect. Be it starting a new sub style of TKD, or what have you.



There ya go. Read more post less.

You havent said ANYTHING productive on this thread.

Thanks,

and I really mean that too.