Thought it was you !

Looks like it's going to be a good forum.

Like everyone said, it's fun, and it can be great exercise. I enjoyed it as part of cultural study too.



Also because...THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!!
(had to throw that in)

Kata in my Kenjutsu class is certainly alive.

Say what now?

Ninja, please.

Say what now?

Ninja, please.


Zendetta Kenjutsu kata like many Japanese arts and pair technique drilling. Spooky please describe kata drilling at your dojo.

I decided to answer you post instead of Trollshiding it this time, if you don't stop trolling his forum I will have your access to it removed. Only warning.

Its good that you did.

You are being a bit uptight, my friend. I'm not trolling, and you should have left my last post. It was a completely legit response to the question of sword relevance today.

I've studied iaido (a little) and am familiar with how kata training is used in Japanese sword arts. I'm considering doing some Toyama Ryu sword (battodo) at a nearby dojo ( http://suigetsukan.org/ ) for the tamashagiri practice, or kendo with a very prestigious teacher ( http://www.geocities.com/eastbaykenyukai/ ).

Some guys in my crew do alive sparring with shinai and homemade armor twice a week and it gets pretty savage. I mean "Alive" alive, not juiced-up Kata. I think you can appreciate my scepticism on this topic.

I've loved the Japanese sword since I got into jujutsu the summer out of high school. I just think that: its usually not trained in anything resembling an "Alive" manner, attracts alot of wankers, and is not particaulrly relevant in a world of cheap guns and even cheaper lawyers.

I hope that makes it clearer. Jeez, does training MMA automatically make one a troll when it comes to TMA threads?

I hope that makes it clearer. Jeez, does training MMA automatically make one a troll when it comes to TMA threads?

No, in serious focus I expect serious posts. "Ninja, please" isn't a serious post. A requestion explaination and discussion of your side showing your intentions, is a serious post. The above post it what I am looking for here. Thanks.

Lastly, This isn't YMAS.

Thread cleaned up to stay on topic.
Alright, I'll behave...

Any sort of training on how to more effectively wield a weapon that extends your reach is applicable for today's world. While swords might not be in abundance, broom handles and various other long sticks are, and the techniques for swinging one would easily translate to the other. I would agree that it's a little more sensible to train in stick fighting for such a thing, rather than learning a two-handed weapon. Still, there's a subculture coolness in learning swordplay, so if that gets your attention, go for it. Then you can walk around with a cane and beat people to bloody pulps with that, instead of slicing off arms and legs.

Some guys in my crew do alive sparring with shinai and homemade armor twice a week and it gets pretty savage. I mean "Alive" alive, not juiced-up Kata. I think you can appreciate my scepticism on this topic.



Juiced up Kata is not are replacment to grabbing some leather wrap shinai get beating on each other (I have scars on my hands from this). However, I will say that kata can be done like drilling. Parry and strike where the uke is against trying to put the hurt out then stop after a defense is done. Its the same as Judo-ka doing 50 Seio Nage to practice the throw, then do randori. They supplement each other.

I enjoyed fencing (foil and epee) enormously it was a great sport requiring excellent condidtioning, speed dexterity and most important of all strategy.

As a sport it's closest relative in my opinion (bare with me) is Tennis, the quick back and forth movement, and the strategy involved in getting someone out of positon.

it was no coincident that the UofT Fencing coach and was also the tennis coach.

So to me Fencing had about as much real life worth as tennis.

But it still kicks ass on the fun-o-meter

However, I will say that kata can be done like drilling. Parry and strike where the uke is against trying to put the hurt out then stop after a defense is done. Its the same as Judo-ka doing 50 Seio Nage to practice the throw, then do randori. They supplement each other.

Now we are getting somewhere. I've never said Kata wasn't potentially valueable, but, without getting semantically picky, its not "Alive" to me if it rests on predictable patterns.

I would like to hear Spooky comment on this.

Now that you know my intentions and presumeably arn't going to ban me, you should bring back my original post. It is a legit response, whether you liked it or not.


Juiced up Kata is not are replacment to grabbing some leather wrap shinai get beating on each other (I have scars on my hands from this).

Lacrosse gloves.


PS - any of you nerds here do Kendo? I'm thinking of trying it out, as there is a 8th dan teacher near me who is regarded as a living treasure/ sword messiah/ total badass.

Its good that you did.

You are being a bit uptight, my friend. I'm not trolling, and you should have left my last post. It was a completely legit response to the question of sword relevance today.

I've studied iaido (a little) and am familiar with how kata training is used in Japanese sword arts. I'm considering doing some Toyama Ryu sword (battodo) at a nearby dojo ( http://suigetsukan.org/ ) for the tamashagiri practice, or kendo with a very prestigious teacher ( http://www.geocities.com/eastbaykenyukai/ ).

Some guys in my crew do alive sparring with shinai and homemade armor twice a week and it gets pretty savage. I mean "Alive" alive, not juiced-up Kata. I think you can appreciate my scepticism on this topic.

I've loved the Japanese sword since I got into jujutsu the summer out of high school. I just think that: its usually not trained in anything resembling an "Alive" manner, attracts alot of wankers, and is not particaulrly relevant in a world of cheap guns and even cheaper lawyers.


So you've not done any Koryu Kenjutsu training only a little Iaido, probably only the Seitei Kata?

You're also looking at Kendo?

Can I ask about the sparring you do with Shinai, what does it involve?

As for the Kenjutsu Kata well:

This is all my own understanding so could be wrong and is only a very brief run down!

You have Shidachi and Uchidachi. Uchidachi is the more experienced of the two and is teaching Shidachi. It is Uchidachi that controls the timing distance etc.

Uchidachi teaches and leads Shidachi by attacking in a proper manner i.e. actually trying to cave Shidachi's head in with a Bokken. This lets Shidachi learn about correct distance, intention and openings etc

It is not combat and is not meant to be it is a way of learning. It is a drill.

First we learn the shape of the kata the mechanical aspect but even at this stage it is drilled into us to have proper intention and spirit as I said in the other post it is not a dance.

Then you pair up. As with any technique or drill that is learned you start of slow but again with proper intention. From this uchidachi may change the timing or distance. Then was the form has been grasped i.e. you know the sequence then the speed is increased again distance and timing will change and uchidachi may even start to put in feints.

All of this is built on. At times I have been up and down the dojo just drilling one aspect i.e a block or parry, with my senior going all out at me again altering timing distance etc so that there is no set pattern to it even though the actual drill may involve only one movement i.e a block.


These kata are drilled and drilled and just as you think you have one aspect correct you learn there is another level to it.

There is resistance in the Kata if I am doing a block and then trapping my partner’s sword and I’m not doing it correctly then he aint moving and he’ll fight it. If my angle of a parry is off or again I’m screwing it up somewhere then if I’m luck I’ll end up on my ass if not I’ll probably take a smack to the head. This resistance is increased with experience.

Once you have reached a specific level your seniors start changing all aspects of the kata there will not be a predictable rhythm to it or set footwork but the one constant will be intention they will be aiming to cut all the way through you and not stopping at your head/neck, arm etc.

Hope that helps, it’s hard to put into words to be honest as there is that much to it.

You may not have seen Kata done like that only doing a bit of Iaido, especially if you only looked at Seitie. The whole idea of that is self improvement and the Do aspect of the art even thought hey have combative roots. Killing the opponent isn’t really at the forefront of that type of training. Iaijustu and the Koryu Kata will be different as they do have a combative approach.

I imagine you would see the Iaido kata as dead forms.

Please forgve me if I'm rambling on about stuff you already know.

As for sparring well that's what Kendo is for :evil:

No, good response. I have to start my shiatsu class, but I'll post more later.

There are some valuable things you can get with outdated weapons (like swords) training from pure physical training to philosophical understanding of fighting; psichological, technical, tactical and principles/strategies of the style.

There are some valuable things you can get with outdated weapons (like swords) training from pure physical training to philosophical understanding of fighting; psichological, technical, tactical and principles/strategies of the style.


Such as?

BTW I am not being a dick I just want to hear more

The most important thing I've learnt from weapons work (sword etc.) is its correlation to my empty hands MA practice. I've found that its opened up my mind, shown me possibilities, links, made me more adaptable as an MA'ist.

From a practice point of view it helps in developing great hand-eye-foot coordination (of course other activities can provide this) and good reflexes. The practice itself has been great for my skinny arms :)

A few people have brought up the aspect of judging distance and spatial awareness. Day in and day out at my JJJ dojo I see how this flows through into our training (sparring, throwing, ground work etc.). And as with everything, the more you train the more instinctive this knowledge becomes and I'd say that its ingrained in me because of my sword work and gives me an edge despite my size in the dojo.

Again this has been mentioned, the pressure and honed intent of an armed attacker (in training) can only make your empty hand practice even better. To be able to act, react, think against an armed attacker is a workout. The mental discipline and focus

I'm not a LARP'er but to practice the sword arts for me is to appreciate and gain another perspective of another society and time. We are the sum of our past and to understand the significance of the sword historically/culturally/martially only makes me richer as a person.

Also, I like sharp things.