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pauli
2/01/2007 1:36pm,
trying to get a handle on what goes here; if i fail at internet, oh well.

it occured to me the other day while driving to class that i have no idea what japanese striking styles were like before karate made it into the culture. nearly all of the koryu jujutsu demo videos i've seen can be classified as either protojudo and protoaikido, but i'm willing to presume that there was some level of punchin and kickin going on between deadly wrist grabs.

what direction should i look in to satiate my curiosity on this subject?

Plasma
2/01/2007 1:58pm,
trying to get a handle on what goes here; if i fail at internet, oh well.

it occured to me the other day while driving to class that i have no idea what japanese striking styles were like before karate made it into the culture. nearly all of the koryu jujutsu demo videos i've seen can be classified as either protojudo and protoaikido, but i'm willing to presume that there was some level of punchin and kickin going on between deadly wrist grabs.

what direction should i look in to satiate my curiosity on this subject?


There are a few Ko Ryu Jujutsu school whose Taijutsu focus on Atemi-waza rather then KumiTachi. Older style striking usually classifies inself under Koppojutsu, Dakenjutsu, or Gohojutsu.


The Atemijutsu arts are fewer and far between because Ko Ryu arts intended for battlefield antisipates standard armor, therefore throws and grappling were more effective then punching and kicking. However, those artd still do have atemi-waza to set up their throw.

That being said there are a few Striking Ko Ryu, whose intended use wasn't a location where people wore armour (aka anywhere but the battlefield);


Here is a sample of Ko Ryu striking art. This is Koto Ryu Koppojutsu

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PX1Kofu6CLk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PX1Kofu6CLk

leere_form
2/01/2007 3:24pm,
my favorite part was when he threw the guy on his face with that sutemi-waza/tomoe-nage thing.

otherwise.. eh, it's interesting from a historical standpoint!

Plasma
2/01/2007 3:38pm,
my favorite part was when he threw the guy on his face with that sutemi-waza/tomoe-nage thing.

otherwise.. eh, it's interesting from a historical standpoint!

The older throws were more designed to throw people on their head rather then letting them flip in a air and do a safe fall. Thats an Okuden (Advanced) technique for the Ryu-Ha.

I like it too.


As for the video, do keep it mind, it from a demo, demo techniques tends to be over ritualized and showy.

leere_form
2/01/2007 3:59pm,
of course, of course, demo techniques are like that.

that they train throwing people on their heads (in a way that looks like it would work just fine) endears me to these guys anyway.

it looks very aikido-esque in parts, leading me to wonder if they have some of the "lost striking techniques" of aikido ... or if that's what t3h r34l aikido is supposed to look like.

Plasma
2/01/2007 4:03pm,
of course, of course, demo techniques are like that.

that they train throwing people on their heads (in a way that looks like it would work just fine) endears me to these guys anyway.

it looks very aikido-esque in parts, leading me to wonder if they have some of the "lost striking techniques" of aikido ... or if that's what t3h r34l aikido is supposed to look like.



In Japanese Martial Arts, if Aikido is the very left of the spectrum , Koppojutsu is on the very right.

Aikido: "I flow will your attack, letting you throw yourself"
Koppojutsu: "I stop you attack by attacking you, the I grab your skin and use it to throw you on your head"

leere_form
2/01/2007 4:13pm,
the numerous ways in which people approach "aikido" never cease to amaze me, because in yoshinkan aikido at least, they use a lot of "pre-emptive" attacks. ostensibly the attack elicits a defense response, to get the opponent to present an arm for arm/wrist techniques.

not quite as aggressive as koppojutsu sounds, but not as passively defensive as aikido is often made out to be.

it's weird because you run into the opinion far too often that aikido "has no attacks" or
"never strikes first," when certainly some styles retain and train striking in one form or another.

i know morihei ueshiba at one point said that "aikido is 99% atemi," but i'd have to find the source if we're gonna contribute that to the "koryu striking" discussion.

DCS
2/02/2007 12:22pm,
i know morihei ueshiba at one point said that "aikido is 99% atemi," but i'd have to find the source if we're gonna contribute that to the "koryu striking" discussion.

- From the book "Traditional Aikido", written by Saito Morihiro; Vol 5.

pg. 38 - ATEMI (Body blow prior to applying technique).

"Atemi accounts for 99% of Aikido was a remark once uttered by the founder. I introduced atemi at some length in Vol. 4. Atemi is virtually omitted in Aikido training on the ground that [a] preliminary blow should not become a matter of predominant concern. However, there are quite a few cases in which hte meaning of a technique becomes incomprehensible if the attendant atemi is left out. I suggest therefore that after reading through Vol. 4, study should be made as to when atemi should be delivered in the execution of a technique and cases of it's omission."


- From the book "Total Aikido", written by Shioda Gozo.

pg. 24 - ATEMI - STRIKING (The moment of contact becomes a strike).

"The founder, Ueshiba Sensei, said, In a real battle, atemi is seventy percent, technique is thirty percent. The training that we do in the dojo is designed to teach us various sorts of techniques, the correct way to move our body, effective ways of using our power, and how to create a relationship with the other person." [This quote is repeated on page 19 of "Aikido Shugyo", also by Shioda Gozo].

- From the biographical book "The Founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba", written by Ueshiba Kisshomaru (translated and reprinted in Aiki News #62). Excerpt originally written by Okamoto Ippei and published in the November 1933 (i think it's a typo) issue of Budo magazine.

"[Ueshiba] started with easy techniques using two of his students. Even for an untrained eye, it was clear that he moved very softly... However, in the meantime his students attack him with all their might and still tumble down in a shower of attacks (atemi) to their vital points.
In short his art reaches a conclusion before ordinary judo even starts its work. [The Founder] said, 'My technique is 70 percent atemi (striking) and 30 percent nage (throwing).' "


Source (http://www.tsuki-kage.com/ueshiba.html)

leere_form
2/02/2007 10:29pm,
aha, thanks.

do you train atemi in your aikido style?

spooky
2/07/2007 6:07am,
In Japanese Martial Arts, if Aikido is the very left of the spectrum , Koppojutsu is on the very right.

Aikido: "I flow will your attack, letting you throw yourself"
Koppojutsu: "I stop you attack by attacking you, the I grab your skin and use it to throw you on your head"


Koto Ryu can bloody hurt!

Plasma
2/07/2007 6:59am,
Koto Ryu can bloody hurt!


Spooky did you like the clip?

That is Kaminaga's dojo, he was a student of Ueno Takashi. He is the man that the Ko Ryu Federation recongizes as the lineage grandmaster of Koto Ryu (not a slight on Hatsumi, but it worth pointing out).

And you can bring back to Chapman(I believed he commented before about us teaching Koto-ryu), Thats the lineage Tanemura claims Koto-ryu from and through that lineage is were we licenese in Koto-ryu. However, our Koto-ryu is much less stylized, I don't know what that stance they start with or why they chamber there punches.

spooky
2/07/2007 7:27am,
Spooky did you like the clip?

That is Kaminaga's dojo, he was a student of Ueno Takashi. He is the man that the Ko Ryu Federation recongizes as the lineage grandmaster of Koto Ryu (not a slight on Hatsumi, but it worth pointing out).

And you can bring back to Chapman(I believed he commented before about us teaching Koto-ryu), Thats the lineage Tanemura claims Koto-ryu from and through that lineage is were we licenese in Koto-ryu. However, our Koto-ryu is much less stylized, I don't know what that stance they start with or why they chamber there punches.


Yes I did, very interesting. What I've come to expect from demo clips of that sort, very formal.

Feryk
2/07/2007 5:56pm,
In Japanese Martial Arts, if Aikido is the very left of the spectrum , Koppojutsu is on the very right.

Aikido: "I flow will your attack, letting you throw yourself"
Koppojutsu: "I stop you attack by attacking you, the I grab your skin and use it to throw you on your head"

This is nothing but a positive for Koppojutsu. Haven't really heard much about this particular style. Is it taught widely in North America or no?

Plasma
2/07/2007 6:43pm,
This is nothing but a positive for Koppojutsu. Haven't really heard much about this particular style. Is it taught widely in North America or no?


Not really the primarily source of Koppojutsu in the North America is the Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan. On top of thats I wouldn't consider 90% of those school to do real koppojutsu, most of the x-kans school do Koppojutsu in a style more consistent with Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Koto Ryu is suppose to hard and brutal, not circular and flowing.

Koppojutsu style is located in realm Ko Ryu Jujutsu which is fairly rare outside of Japan.

Real Hard lineage Koppojutsu is next to impossible to find. Unless you live near one of the very few Koppojutsu school, the closest you can hope is a GOOD Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan School.

spooky
2/08/2007 2:55am,
Have to admit I've never thought of Koto Ryu to be circular, Gyokko Ryu yes not Koto Ryu. It always seemed to focus on more linear movement and angles, I havenít done that much though.

Plasma
2/08/2007 7:04am,
Have to admit I've never thought of Koto Ryu to be circular, Gyokko Ryu yes not Koto Ryu. It always seemed to focus on more linear movement and angles, I havenít done that much though.


Many of the school under the American Shihan's (I have no clue about the British ones) are IMO bluring the lines between the Ryu-Ha. This will still do Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu kata however, the "feel" and style of the then will be the same.

For example, I've seen Bujinkan start a Koppojutsu kata and then all of a sudden do a Classical jujutsu style wrist lock and do a Takagi Yoshin Ryu pin. This is leading to bleeding of kata and lose of purpose of doing a Koppojutsu technique.

Koto-ryu needs to be straight, powerful and overtaking. Without that it is no longer Koppojutsu.

Go to the bottom of this page http://www.daytonbujinkan.com/picturesvideos.html

These are Koto Ryu Kata - American Bujinkan Style. This is NOT Koppojutsu anymore.

Batsugi Henka (2 MB)
(.avi)

Koyoku Henka (1.2 MB)