Is it me or has this whole thread become MAP worthy?

Are they high level Jujitsu practitioners?

No, just high level speakers of their own mother tongue, one neither you (I'm guessing) nor I are at a similar level of fluency in.


That's why he uses the jujitsu transliteration instead of jujutsu.

So, rather than "soft technique," your friend instead teaches "soft truth?" That's what my point was - "jutsu" means technique/method/art, while "jitsu" does not. Different sounds, different kanji. Again, whatever... Say it, write it, use it how you like...


Next up, getting Matt Stone to correct his style field to "yee1-lee2-chwon4"
to properly reflect how his choice of transliteration should really be pronounced.

If that's the right reference to tones, then fine. Do you know what the characters are, though, so we don't get the tonal reference wrong? Did I mention I studied Mandarin in college, too? Maybe not...

So, rather than "soft technique," your friend instead teaches "soft truth?"


Yes, though he prefers "flexible" over "soft" for the translation of "ju".

If you want people to accept an appeal to authority to a Japanese language scholar you happen to know, I think it is only fitting to pull out another appeal to authority to an actual scholar of Jujitsu who is also pretty well educated in both Japanese and English as a rebuttal.

Yes, though he prefers "flexible" over "soft" for the translation of "ju".

To further clarify, does he teach "flexible technique," or "flexible truth?" That makes worlds of difference in this discussion...

Again, "technique" and "truth" are two different words in Japanese just as they are in English, with different kanji and different pronunciations, not to mention different transliterations (the former being "jutsu," the latter being "jitsu").

Anyway, enjoy.

:beatdead:

To further clarify, does he teach "flexible technique," or "flexible truth?" That makes worlds of difference in this discussion...

Again, "technique" and "truth" are two different words in Japanese just as they are in English, with different kanji and different pronunciations, not to mention different transliterations (the former being "jutsu," the latter being "jitsu").

Anyway, enjoy.

:beatdead:


I know that; so does he. He likes "flexible truth" as a better description of his "flexible art."

That's the problem with the appeal to authority you started. Asking the "Japanese Jujitsu scholar" to explain himself is like you asking your "Japanese language scholar" to explain himself. They just "know" and neither you nor I have the deeper knowledge of their subject matter to understand their answer even if they could put it into more words than "that's what it is supposed to be."


... and, I think both you and I find it rather amusing to beat dead horses.


We get a really good idea, and then we'll do it every night for a couple months, and then we'll continue to do it, and then just beat it to death, and then after we've beaten it to death, we'll do it for another year. " -- David Letterman

I know that; so does he. He likes "flexible truth" as a better description of his "flexible art."

So you've made my point for me... Thanks for that. He uses a different word entirely, thereby nullifying your attempt to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about.

真 = jitsu = "jee-tsoo" = truth

術 = jutsu = "joo-tsoo" = technique


That's the problem with the appeal to authority you started. Asking the "Japanese Jujitsu scholar" to explain himself is like you asking your "Japanese language scholar" to explain himself. They just "know" and neither you nor I have the deeper knowledge of their subject matter to understand their answer even if they could put it into more words than "that's what it is supposed to be."

Quite the contrary, Mr. Watson...


... and, I think both you and I find it rather amusing to beat dead horses.

Ultimately, is a pseudo-scholarly, intraweb debate over foreign linguistics as they apply to the pursuit of martial skill anything but?

This thread is now worthy of being called a MAP style slap fest.

The word is in English, there is a small precedent of words in the English language being spelt completely differently to their pronunciation, a tradition that even whilst raping my beautiful language the Yanks have continued.

For example, all the Yanks should look up the pronunciation of Edinburgh and compare that to its written form. You'll be amazed at just how wrong you fuckers have been pronouncing it. Another example would be Arkansas.

Dictionaries come with pronunciation keys for a reason, written words are not identical to spoken language. Arguing over the pronunciation of a word in Japanese to the way it's spelt in English is retarded.

For the sake of clarity, I favour the Ju Jutsu spelling (not Jitsu or Jujutsu), but the actual pronunciation (as pointed out already) is 'joo joot soo'.

I never said you didn't know what you were talking about. I said you were being a word Nazi or possibly trying to be more Japanese than the Japanese.

There is a difference. Or, should we start beating that horse, too?


:smile:

... for the record, he uses 術 and translates it as "art" (Cool, I had to cut-and-paste that. I'm assuming you have an IME and typed "jutsu".) He says that's too rigid and there is more truth it. Hence, his flexible and artistic double entendre.

[Okay, he didn't quite phrase it like that - with the bad puns. That's just me getting a little loopy here. Since the jobs I was running completed 10 minutes ago, I'm going to bed.]

For example, all the Yanks should look up the pronunciation of Edinburgh and compare that to its written form. You'll be amazed at just how wrong you fuckers have been pronouncing it.My Scottish ex girlfriend talked about Hogmanay so much that I now constantly misspell Edinburgh.

The 'jutsu' people are correct, the rest are just being stipid.

Jesus tap-dancing Christ...

I'm not talking about changing the world. I'm talking about correcting people who ought to know better (e.g. martial artists who practice one or more variants of a grappling art referred to as either jujutsu, jujitsu, or jiu-jiutsu, ad nauseum), pointing out the relatively "approved" method of romanized transliteration of a foreign word in contrast to versions that, especially when applied to other Japanese arts, are commonly held to be incorrect. I get that "the rest of the world," to include Google and other spellcheckers, says "jujitsu" is okay. Fine. Good for them. I'm saying, for those "in the know," it's not good enough... There's the possibility of better, and better has always been the mortal enemy of good enough.

What about these -

Kenjitsu or Kenjutsu?

Kyujitsu or Kyujutsu?

Ninjitsu or Ninjutsu?

Again, ad nauseum... But I'm thinking that a koryu budo purist wouldn't sit still for "jitsu."

I'm not going around correcting the "common man" for his misuse of very specific jargon. Even in Japan, in Japanese, martial arts terminology are largely unknown by persons outside the dojo community; if someone misuses a term in that context, whatever.

For those who train, practice, read, and aspire to higher levels of knowledge, however, I point out the flaws as I know them to be, in light of my experience and education.

**** this... Spell it how you like, argue for your own usage. I'll be sure to keep my mouth shut and let you all do whatever you like, however you like, since it's not worth the trouble to make what is, as has been pointed out by my detractors, such a very minor correction... I mean, really, it's transposing an "i" for a "u." I may be arguing on behalf of the "u," but y'all are putting up a hell of a fight to keep your "i."

Just as a reminder, I agree that "jujutsu" reflects the way Japanese people say the word. That's the way I hear it every day here and that's the way I prefer to see it spelled. But it doesn't represent anything "higher" or "better". English speakers adopting the word into English and pronouncing it or spelling it "jujitsu" reflects the natural evolution of an imported word. It's just like my Japanese boxing coach pronouncing and spelling it ボクシング. Should I tell him that's "not good enough" for a former champion boxer and start correcting him? If he actually changes to the "commonly approved" American pronunciation (instead of punching me in the face), does that really make him "better" in any way?

Sorry if I'm busting your balls too much about this. You obviously know what you're talking about with language, but those value judgements rub me the wrong way. That's all. I will now return to lurking. :lurk:

Matt Stone, I apologize. I previously did an internet search on yili and got nothing, so i assumed it was mcdojo.

however, i did a search on a different engine just now and found a few links..

again, i'm sorry.

from what i read, though, it sounds a lot like aikido.

The 'jutsu' people are correct, the rest are just being stipid.


Okay first...

LOL! (especially 'stipid' over 'stupid')

Now second ...

:biblethum :biblethum :biblethum :biblethum :biblethum


THE JAPANESE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT GET TO DECIDE WHAT IS OR IS NOT ENGLISH!


Insisting that Jujutsu is RIGHT :biblethum and Jujitsu/Jiu Jitsu/Zhoo Zheet Zhoo is WRONG :biblethum is no different than a French man arguing that saying 'gil-uh-teen' is wrong. It's not. It's English. Just because the alternate 'gee-uh-teen' pronunciation just so happens to match the French pronunciation of a word of French origin does not make one correct over the other for anyplace other than in France.

You can't even reasonably argue that 'Jujitsu' is obsolete - it's still in use! That's like a French engineer arguing that S.A.E. measurements units are wrong just because France adopted the metric standard.


Are you French in France? Do you want to be?
Are you Japanese in Japan? Do you want to be?


(A pedantic MAP-ish argument done 'Bullshido style' can be amusing once in a while, IMO. :biggrin: )

Okay first...

LOL! (especially 'stipid' over 'stupid')

Now second ...

:biblethum :biblethum :biblethum :biblethum :biblethum


THE JAPANESE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT GET TO DECIDE WHAT IS OR IS NOT ENGLISH!


Insisting that Jujutsu is RIGHT :biblethum and Jujitsu/Jiu Jitsu/Zhoo Zheet Zhoo is WRONG :biblethum is no different than a French man arguing that saying 'gil-uh-teen' is wrong. It's not. It's English. Just because the alternate 'gee-uh-teen' pronunciation just so happens to match the French pronunciation of a word of French origin does not make one correct over the other for anyplace other than in France.

You can't even reasonably argue that 'Jujitsu' is obsolete - it's still in use! That's like a French engineer arguing that S.A.E. measurements units are wrong just because France adopted the metric standard.


Are you French in France? Do you want to be?
Are you Japanese in Japan? Do you want to be?


(A pedantic MAP-ish argument done 'Bullshido style' can be amusing once in a while, IMO. :biggrin: )

So, if someone in another western language wants to write jujutsu/jitsu/zheetsu... he shouldn't ask the japanese how to better match it in the Roman alphabet because, well, they don't get to decide what's english, right?

Found this here: http://www.furyu.com/wayne/Seifukan/budonotes/notes001.html


Jujutsu is more properly used than the Westernized word "jujitsu," which in Japanese characters, doesn't really mean anything. It's only one letter in English, but will change a whole Chinese character in Japanese. Jujutsu means the method (jutsu) of suppleness; not necessarily yielding or weakness. The "ju-" is the same character as that used in judo.

One should make a distinction between the various classical jujutsu styles, as well as differentiate between gendai, or modern, jujutsu and classical (koryu) jujutsu. Whether or not any one particular system is inherently better than another is a matter of opinion, and of course it will vary from practitioner to practitioner. However, this does not necessarily mean we should leave our judgment at the door. We should assess each and every martial arts we encounter and quickly size up the technical worth of that particular ryu. Modern jujutsu, or "jujitsu" schools, as they label themselves, tend to be somewhat simplified, and sports and/or self-defense oriented. On the other hand, some classical koryu jujutsu schools may have become little more than shells of their original due to the low level of its subsequent teachers.

Most such jujitsu schools in the West are based upon some rudiments or subsets of Kodokan judo, developed further by the founders of those schools. Therefore, in my opinion, they display markers that to a discerning eye, can place the techniques as derivative of judo. That is not to say that they are ineffective, as classical judo itself was derived from koryu jujutsu, distilled and refined into what I would say was the "best of the best" techniques for tournament contests.

So, if someone in another western language wants to write jujutsu/jitsu/zheetsu... he shouldn't ask the japanese how to better match it in the Roman alphabet because, well, they don't get to decide what's english, right?


Yes, pretty much. In fact, if you look it up in other languages which also use a phonetic alphabet, you will find more variations of what is the "accepted" transliteration and "accepted" pronunciation of just this one phrase.