I'd still change it just to avoid any confusion with Jiu-Jitsu


People aren't that dense. And those who are probably will be mercilessly flamed in this sub-forum.


For the record, I know at least one Japanese practitioner who uses the "jujitsu" transliteration. And, if memory serves, (it frequently doesn't), Jigoro Kano himself used the "jujitsu" transliteration in is writings and by others who translated some of his papers he wrote in Japanese.

People aren't that dense. And those who are probably will be mercilessly flamed in this sub-forum.


For the record, I know at least one Japanese practitioner who uses the "jujitsu" transliteration. And, if memory serves, (it frequently doesn't), Jigoro Kano himself used the "jujitsu" transliteration in is writings and by others who translated some of his papers he wrote in Japanese.


Kano used 術 which is translation in modern and more used romanji as "jutsu" some early romanji system translated it as "jitsu". That doesn't change the Kanji Kano used. The only time I see jitsu in print anymore is from older translations.

Kano used 術 which is translation in modern and more used romanji as "jutsu" some early romanji system translated it as "jitsu"

[pedantic blah blah blah]

Translation: "gentile art", "flexible art"

Transliteration: "jujitsu", "jujutsu", "Jiu Jitsu" (and others)


I just looked it up: The romanization system officially recognized by the Japanese government is Kunrei-shiki Rōmaji, not Hepburn (where "jujutsu" came from) . "Jujutsu" would actually be officially incorrect!

[/pedantic blah blah blah]


BTW, if you are a jew, why are you so concerned with an art for the Gentiles?


:smile:

[pedantic blah blah blah]

Translation: "gentile art", "flexible art"

Transliteration: "jujitsu", "jujutsu", "Jiu Jitsu" (and others)


I just looked it up: The romanization system officially recognized by the Japanese government is Kunrei-shiki Rōmaji, not Hepburn (where "jujutsu" came from) . "Jujutsu" would actually be officially incorrect!

[/pedantic blah blah blah]

Hepburn is what everyone fucking uses.





BTW, if you are a jew, why are you so concerned with an art for the Gentiles?


:smile:

Touche.

First of all, it's jIujitsu FTW, and **** you and **** BBmagazine and their editing of every reference to BJJ as "Brazilian Jujutsu". Seeing them refer to the mundials and Abu Dhabi as "Jujutsu" competitions made my eyes bleed. Why do you love BBmagazine Plasma? Why do you make Jesus cry so?

[pedantic blah blah blah]

Translation: "gentile art", "flexible art"

Transliteration: "jujitsu", "jujutsu", "Jiu Jitsu" (and others)


I just looked it up: The romanization system officially recognized by the Japanese government is Kunrei-shiki Rōmaji, not Hepburn (where "jujutsu" came from) . "Jujutsu" would actually be officially incorrect!

Ju/Jiu - Jitsu would also be incorrect in both kunrei-shiki and Hepburn.

Besides, the only way to get the correct Kanji on the computer when you enable the Japanese characters, is to spell the right Hepburn equivalent.

Edit: I'd say leave the "jitsu" for BJJ. Is perfectly coherent, Japanese in origin and yet not really Japanese.

Well whether it's wrong or right if Kano used the Kanji form of the Romanji JUTSU then I am JUTSU all the way, because Kano tapped out God once but the video was destroyed because God's a sore looser.

Edit: I'd say leave the "jitsu" for BJJ. Is perfectly coherent, Japanese in origin and yet not really Japanese.


I stand (or sit) corrected regarding the specifics of the romanization. However, "jitsu" is still also Japanese in origin.

Give some credit to people. They just aren't that dense to not see the difference between JJJ and BJJ regardless of spelling or loping off the prefix and just calling it Jujutsu, Jujitsu, or Jiu Jitsu. And if they don't, they shouldn't be posting here.

"Jū" fucking "jutsu"

Kanji = 柔術

Kana (i.e. Japanese phonetic writing system) じゅう じゅつ


The Japanese language is very precise in terms of pronunciation, and it does have two phoenetic scripts that date back to at least the 8th century, so I don't think there is any confusion in Japan as how to pronounce Jujutsu. With that said, I accept the idea that Jiu Jitsu may be more appropriate to use with BJJ, since it is a Brazillian adaptation of Jujutsu, so a seperate spelling seems appropriate. After all, the same Chinese characters have different pronunciations in China and Korea, so I think the spelling "jiu jitsu" represents the Brazillian adaptation of these characters.

One of my favorite debates of all time... The "proper spelling" of a living foreign language's words, transliterated into another language, in this case American English, for the use of non-native speakers. Always entertaining...

First, understand that the kanji represented in romaji by jutsu and jitsu are two separate words. Think "deer" and "dear," though certainly jutsu and jitsu are not homophones.

Second, understand that unlike the sloppy vowel sounds of American English, there are but 5 vowels in Japanese represented in romaji as a (ah), i (ee), u (oo), e (eh), and o (oh). Those are the sounds, period. American English has at least 10 vowel sounds (long and short), as well as the variety of blended vowels represented by "ea," "ae," "ey," etc.

Third, though there are only 5 vowels, there are emphases placed on some syllables, making the syllables long or short, but not affecting the pronunciation of the base vowel. For example, oji-san is your uncle, while ojii-san is an old man. Note that the "long" or extended vowel is indicated by the double vowel letter in this case. In the case of a long o, however, different variants of romaji represent the long o differently, such as oo or ou, both representing essentially the same sound. For example, the name Hiroo could potentially also be spelled Hirou.

Fourth, though there are a few variants of romaji, and they are mostly interchangeable, there are some things that aren't done. One of them is to blatantly substitute one vowel for another. This would be akin in English to substituting "deer" with "dare" because to the untrained ear they may sound the same, or a similar sound might be found in the native language that is closer than the foreign sounding English vowel.

This is precisely the case with jujutsu and jujitsu.

The former is very simply pronounced (in English terms) "-jootsu," while the latter is "-jeetsu," an entirely different pronunciation, an entirely different character, and wholly incorrect. Again, "deer" and "dare;" close, but not interchangeable and not the same.

Perhaps to satisfy all the non-Japanese speakers here, and to better represent the broad nature of this particular art form, and the fact that it represents a variety of arts represented in English by a variety of differently spelled words, a "Jujutsu/Jujitsu/Jiu-Jitsu" title might be more favorable?

Good post, Matt. I feel I should also point out that there is no short "i" sound in Japanese like it the word "it," which is how I most commonly here the initial vowel sound in jutsu pronounced. Kind of like how most people pronounce karaoke as "carrry okie" or Tae Kwon Don as "Thai Kwon Do." Yeah, its nit picking and I shouldn't let it bug me. Again, though, with regards to BJJ, I think the spelling and pronounciation that are commonly used are appropriate, given that the Gracies have altered Jūjutsu/Judo so much as to make it a seperate MA. However, if you are doing a Japanese MA, learn to fucking spell and pronounce it properly.

Of course all JJJ styles COULD do what Kano did and change it to JuDO thus simplifying and easing the whole ordeal. Again, JUDO FTW.

But so this isn't a dumb random post I was walking 'round Worcester the other day (don't ask me where, I was totally fucking lost with my friends.) when I happen to spy a dojo with an open window and a bunch of kids practicing.

It was your typical Ke_po Massachusetts piece of **** that takes away students from Kyokushin and Judo dojos in the area and all that but the SIGN was different. Instead of "Such and Such's Shaolin Okinawan Japanese Karate Kung Fu Kempo Academy" it had "Such and Such's Kempo Jujitsu (apparently Ke_po thinks it's jitsu) and JIUdo center"

WTF JIUdo???????

No I didn't enter and confront (I wasn't in the sort of state one should barge into a dojo full of kids) but it did strike me very funny.

Good post, Matt. I feel I should also point out that there is no short "i" sound in Japanese like it the word "it," which is how I most commonly here the initial vowel sound in jutsu pronounced.

Precisely. And due to our larger range of vowel sounds, our general laziness in speaking and enunciating our own language, and an overall unfamiliarity with and contempt for foreign languages, it's not a huge surprise that most Americans don't know how to pronounce things better or even care that they're doing so incorrectly...


Kind of like how most people pronounce karaoke as "carrry okie"

Karaoke = "kah-rah-oh-kay," and I'm still confused how a singing fad became the name for a soccer drill...


or Tae Kwon Don as "Thai Kwon Do."

Tae kwon do = "tay-kahn-doh," and only after much work trying to notice the nuances in Korean language was I aware that kwon doesn't always necessarily have a "kw" dipthong in it...


Yeah, its nit picking and I shouldn't let it bug me.

Why shouldn't it bug you? I guaran-goddamn-tee that most Americans would get pissed off if folks around them routinely misspelled and mispronounced English. How often do we hear "why don't they speak English, for chrissakes?" from people? When I was stationed in both Japan and Korea, I heard it endlessly from tons and tons of Americans... They were in another country and STILL thought that the locals had some kind of responsibility to cater to their monolingualism... Yet the locals are tolerant enough to put up with both American arrogance, deliberate mispronunciation and misuse of their language...

It pisses me off to no end, I guess because I know better and was lucky enough to have friends that corrected me so I didn't embarrass myself further. It pisses me off because when you correct someone, they use bullshit excuses like "well, I don't speak that language, so it's okay if I mispronounce it" or "well, we're not in X country, so it's okay," or my absolute favorite, "well, I use X word the way I like, whether it's correct or not."

WHAT THE ****!!!??? :new_cussi How incredibly fucking retarded does a person have to be to think that any of those excuses are even remotely close to allowing someone to butcher someone else's fucking language??? AAAAGGGHHH!!!!

Okay, I'm better now... My meds just kicked in... :happy7:

Why shouldn't it bug you? I guaran-goddamn-tee that most Americans would get pissed off if folks around them routinely misspelled and mispronounced English.



Come on, the British do it all the time!

You say ju-justu...


.... Dan Qualyle spells Jew Jisoo