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Plasma
1/31/2007 4:42pm,
Well as the Forum Mod (don't laugh!) I'll throw out a topic to start things off. And what better way then a GRAB MY WRIST thread!


So in many of the classical Japanese Ryu-Ha there is a section of TeHodoki, wrist escapes. I know in Asayama Ichiden-ryu there is a large section of them. Many of these had application during the days when people carried swords, grabbing a wrist to prevent the draw. This could be still applicated when prevent someone, or having one some preventing your from draw your knife/gun.


However, unless your LEO how often is someone grabing for your weapon or preventing your from drawing your own. So is there a more modern application to these Te-waza?

I've found alot of this can easily be applied to grip fighting. When grappling, especially Judo, the first part usually is getting a solid grip or preventing your opponent from getting one. These Traditional TeHodoki had the purpose of remove and countering your opponents grip. Its reasons that application of such wouldn't be limited to getting to the draw, but apply to setting up for a throw.

I have found that to be quite effective in getting your opponent to release, preventing you from getting into a bad/worse position.

Just something to start the forum off. Please make better threads.

Lily2
1/31/2007 11:23pm,
You've pretty much said it all.

Being a girl, I'd probably be more likely to get my wrist grabbed by some tool so for me there are definitely situations where I can apply what I've learnt in JJJ.

I think in a modern day context (not related to hindering weapon draw) that an attacker who grabs your wrist isn't being effective (unless he's got a knife to your throat). While his hand/s are tied up you've got the rest of your limbs to use, ability to close in on your attacker, opportunity to unbalance or if you're good enough, transition into a throw.

leere_form
1/31/2007 11:47pm,
I've found the same in Judo, and this is really something I need to apply more in my game, especially for breaking sleeve-end grips.. which I find particularly annoying.

In wrestling the "wrist grab escape" is very handy, since you'll prevent them from taking that particular handle on you.

I feel like being familiar with those kinds of escapes should make your wrists and arms really difficult to grip and hang onto, and not too much else. I don't think the wrist grab escape is more effective for self-defense than, say, using your other hand to punch them in the nose.

If you're just grappling, then after a while they'll just switch to some other grip or hold and throw you from there instead. =P

GRAB MY WRIST
2/01/2007 1:19am,
Well as the Forum Mod (don't laugh!) I'll throw out a topic to start things off. And what better way then a GRAB MY WRIST thread!
Sigh... plAzM4, my initial thoughts were that I have become so (in?)famous that you are starting a thread about me. What a let down, it is not. GMW go cry at the corner.


I've found alot of this can easily be applied to grip fighting. When grappling, especially Judo, the first part usually is getting a solid grip or preventing your opponent from getting one. These Traditional TeHodoki had the purpose of remove and countering your opponents grip. Its reasons that application of such wouldn't be limited to getting to the draw, but apply to setting up for a throw.
In my judo RAN-DORI experience, I don't really do much grip fighting as yet. Because:-
1) When I spar with people better at me, I try to bring them down to newaza because it is where I am better at. I suxs at TACHI-WAZA (my throws usually only get me KOKA or YUKO points)
2) When I meet people who are shittier than me, I just pick them up and throw them on the floor, mwa har har har (very bruttish I am afraid so)!
Not much chance for me to experiment with wrist control in my sparring so far... might try more GRIP fighting in future.

As for aiki-jutsu type of wrist locks, well if I were to execute it during judo RAN-DORI, I will be hansuku-make'd as the rules of judo says "No joints locks other than the elbow". And the aiki-do type locks are very conspicuous... can't really hide from the referee.

GMW

Plasma
2/01/2007 8:30am,
You've pretty much said it all.

Being a girl, I'd probably be more likely to get my wrist grabbed by some tool so for me there are definitely situations where I can apply what I've learnt in JJJ.



I would agree. What Ryu of JJJ are you doing, so I know where you are coming from?




I think in a modern day context (not related to hindering weapon draw) that an attacker who grabs your wrist isn't being effective (unless he's got a knife to your throat). While his hand/s are tied up you've got the rest of your limbs to use, ability to close in on your attacker, opportunity to unbalance or if you're good enough, transition into a throw.


However, an attacker or sparring opponent who isn't a moron, can easily off balance you before you have a chance to react, making the ability to free hand all the more important.
Thnk of Judo style randori where your grip fighting and they get a hold of your wrist /lower selve. There next move will be to pull you in and off balance to throw you. Don't think of static "Ok now Grab my Wrist" exercises. The Transistion of TeHodoki motions are important in regaining your balance.

Plasma
2/01/2007 8:34am,
As for aiki-jutsu type of wrist locks, well if I were to execute it during judo RAN-DORI, I will be hansuku-make'd as the rules of judo says "No joints locks other than the elbow". And the aiki-do type locks are very conspicuous... can't really hide from the referee.

GMW


Escapes, not locks. And escapes that counter into superior position.

If you want to get into Aiki-jujutsu locking and small joint manipulation start a thread on it. I find them to be a nich item that work in the right circumstances.

Teh El Macho
2/01/2007 9:39am,
^^^ Such escapes and locks can be quite interesting in BJJ environments that cross-train with Judo. In such, the limitations on the type of grips and locks are far, far fewer than in Judo randori. What type of learning material exists for this topic? The only source I have (and I know of) on grip fighting is Neil Adams' "Grips" (if this is too divergent from this topic, please let me know :tongue3:)

Plasma
2/01/2007 9:49am,
^^^ Such escapes and locks can be quite interesting in BJJ environments that cross-train with Judo. In such, the limitations on the type of grips and locks are far, far fewer than in Judo randori. What type of learning material exists for this topic? The only source I have (and I know of) on grip fighting is Neil Adams' "Grips" (if this is too divergent from this topic, please let me know :tongue3:)


The material I am using is Asayama Ichiden Ryu TeHodoki Shoden and Okuden. There is a out of print book on the subject, that the only source I can think of in english.

Teh El Macho
2/01/2007 4:54pm,
Hmmm, could you share the title of that out of print book if you have it handy? I've found ebay, and sometimes amazon to be a great source for out-of-print books. I recently bought a judo book that was out of print - Championship Judo: Tai-Otoshi and O-Uchi-Gari Attacks (Ippon Classics). A bit overpriced ($59), but it is worth it.

If an out of print book is worth the read (even if I never get a chance to fully study it and use it), I'll pay for it.

Plasma
2/01/2007 5:36pm,
http://www.amazon.com/Asayama-Ichiden-Taijutsu-Iwaki-Hideo/dp/4901619047/sr=8-2/qid=1170372912/ref=sr_1_2/105-5801390-7215618?ie=UTF8&s=books

HonkyTonkMan
2/01/2007 6:02pm,
What type of grip do you use here?

The clamp type (typical finger and palm) or full handed, using the thumb? Sorry to add nothing but I am not sure what you guys are talking about.

Plasma
2/01/2007 6:35pm,
What type of grip do you use here?

The clamp type (typical finger and palm) or full handed, using the thumb? Sorry to add nothing but I am not sure what you guys are talking about.


We are referring to have your arm seize when drawing a weapon OR during grappling. I've had people do 2 on 1, one hand finger and thumb gripping and Monkey Paw (without opposing thumb).

Any and all.

Lily2
2/01/2007 6:52pm,
pl4zMa - I practice Hontai Yoshin ryu


Originally posted by pl4zMa:
However, an attacker or sparring opponent who isn't a moron, can easily off balance you before you have a chance to react, making the ability to free hand all the more important.

Thnk of Judo style randori where your grip fighting and they get a hold of your wrist /lower selve. There next move will be to pull you in and off balance to throw you. Don't think of static "Ok now Grab my Wrist" exercises. The Transistion of TeHodoki motions are important in regaining your balance.



When it comes to judo randori, yes the importance of breaking the grip is a priority unless you want your ass on the ground. I move straight into the grip and use my feet and lower centre of gravity to transition into locks which flow into a throw/hold/sweep etc. (of course I'm going to break their grip eventually when they're thrown)

And there are times when you know you're going down once your wrist is grabbed so a different set of skills come into play once you're on the ground. I'm a little confused whether we're talking training or real world application here.

Plasma
2/01/2007 7:03pm,
pl4zMa - I practice Hontai Yoshin ryu

Not in London by any chance?





When it comes to judo randori, yes the importance of breaking the grip is a priority unless you want your ass on the ground. I move straight into the grip and use my feet and lower centre of gravity to transition into locks which flow into a throw/hold/sweep etc. (of course I'm going to break their grip eventually when they're thrown)


Spoken like a true Hontai Yoshin Ryu student :) (I am currently working on the Shoden Gata of Takagi Yoshin Ryu - Ishiya lineage)





And there are times when you know you're going down once your wrist is grabbed so a different set of skills come into play once you're on the ground. I'm a little confused whether we're talking training or real world application here.


A little of both. Its application in randori and "the real world"

Lily2
2/01/2007 7:23pm,
pl4zMa - my sensei is from the UK, so you got that right

Are you enjoying learning the counters? Do you see how you can apply them and how do they compare to your existing knowledge.

Plasma
2/01/2007 10:17pm,
pl4zMa - my sensei is from the UK, so you got that right

My Friend just moved to London is at the Hontai Yoshin Ryu Dojo there, that why I ask.




Are you enjoying learning the counters? Do you see how you can apply them and how do they compare to your existing knowledge.


Elebroate. What do you mean by counter. From what I see the Tagaki Yoshin Ryu (ableit different but VERY similiar) Shoden Gata doesn't have counters it primarly Ura Gyaku (Inner Wrist turn) into pinning techniques. Not all the technique as like that (ie. Koto) but no counters.

When I think Counter, I think Koto Ryu OGyaku, which is a defense to Seio Nage, or the Shinobijutsu sub section of Shinden Fudo Ryu where you learn to roll and flip out of throws.