ME,, I ALOS HAB OPINYUNS ,an here tey R:

Beating up Nazis is fun. Those guys are total dicks. Plus they think they're all badass, so when you pop 'em the light goes out of their eyes a little, like when they realize you're not intimidated, and this kinda gives me a boner.

From a philosophical and ethical standpoint, Don Gwinn is (as usual) right, and beating up Nazis when they're rallying up in the town square or whatever is pretty indefensible. All that public-space hoo-hah and assorted lefty justification comes off as hellaciously labored. I know from many, many, many years of observation that 99.999999% of all the super commies doing that **** do it because it's what their social group and self-image demands. Coughing up stock platitudes in response to being questioned on this is no replacement for critical thought, though I enjoy and admire Hedge's ability to reframe these musty old homilies in his typical witty absurdity.

The solution to the Nazi conundrum, of course, is to not try to justify it. Don't wave the bloody shirt of lynched martyrs and get all Emma Goldman on everybody. Unless they're one of your comrades it's just going to make their eyes glaze over. The proper response is, simply, "Beating up Nazis is fun. Those guys are total dicks." You're not defending the oppressed masses. You're not super captain moral high ground dude for doing it. Is it so important to be the good guy all the time? Those Nazis are dicks and walloping them is a pretty good time and that's that.

A few slightly pertinent observations:

Those pics of Hedge, especially the one with battle face, are hilarious and awesome.

At least in the area I live, people identifying as ARA or any one of a number of anti-racist/anti-fascist organization WHO TAKE IT TO THE STREET MAN have hurt a lot more innocent people than the Nazis ever have (and I type that as a guy who's spent the last 20 years breathing funny out his nose due to run-ins with the Hitlery guys). Weird!

http://ipadventures.com/images/derail.jpg

Hedge, do you have conversations with people of opposing political orientations where you try to persuade them?

I personally don't. It's an important thing to do and such, but i'll stick to my specialty and leave that to people who are good at it, seeing as the left already has plenty of people who are enamored of talking.

ME,, I ALOS HAB OPINYUNS ,an here tey R:

Beating up Nazis is fun. Those guys are total dicks. Plus they think they're all badass, so when you pop 'em the light goes out of their eyes a little, like when they realize you're not intimidated, and this kinda gives me a boner.

That's actually more or less what got me motivated at first; they were bullies causing **** in my social circle (the punk scene in the 80s/90s). Back in those days, the more or less apolitical punks and skateboarders operating under 'those guys are dicks, let's get 'em' principle were actually more reliable in an actual scrap than the 'activist' types where I was living.



At least in the area I live, people identifying as ARA or any one of a number of anti-racist/anti-fascist organization WHO TAKE IT TO THE STREET MAN have hurt a lot more innocent people than the Nazis ever have (and I type that as a guy who's spent the last 20 years breathing funny out his nose due to run-ins with the Hitlery guys). Weird!

Where do you live where the ARA types are so wantonly violent? I've definitely heard of unwarranted attacks on non-racist skinheads by over-enthusiastic anti-racist kids, but I'm surprised to hear about it going that far overboard.

BTW, nice troll attempt with the 'Burzum' thing. Do you really like them/him? Due to all the hype a few years ago, I checked them out but found them pretty boring. Most of the people who were hyping them around here were nerdy indie-rock, record-store geeks who thought they were fliriting with 'danger' by listening to crappy electronic music (and/or the early generic 'black metal') just because it was produced by an imprisoned nazi/satanist.

http://ipadventures.com/images/derail.jpg

Fascinating. Must. keep. watching..!

Where do you live where the ARA types are so wantonly violent? I've definitely heard of unwarranted attacks on non-racist skinheads by over-enthusiastic anti-racist kids, but I'm surprised to hear about it going that far overboard.

BTW, nice troll attempt with the 'Burzum' thing. Do you really like them/him? Due to all the hype a few years ago, I checked them out but found them pretty boring. Most of the people who were hyping them around here were nerdy indie-rock, record-store geeks who thought they were fliriting with 'danger' by listening to crappy electronic music (and/or the early generic 'black metal') just because it was produced by an imprisoned nazi/satanist.
Where I live the ARA types are not wantonly violent, at least not currently. When I typed that I was thinking back 10 or so years to a small group that took up shop locally and hurt a handful of undeserving people, some pretty seriously.

One average kid walking along downtown was beat unrecognizable for wearing an Italian soccer jersey and not being able to explain whether its supporters were fascists or leftists (his assailants didn't know either - I asked them - just that some Italian soccer teams were supported by racists) (I remember hearing the shirt was a gift from a cousin or something and the kid didn't even follow the sport), and I saw the aftermath of an altercation where two random guys were attacked with some kinda keychain prong on the suspicion they coulda been boneheads (they weren't, nor even skinheads of any flavor, just clean-cut dudes with short hair at a punk show) with one of 'em getting most of his scalp ripped off.

Anyway, after a few incidents like this the guys took their "direct action" somewhere else, when it became clear their loud lefty sloganeering was no longer masking their true agenda, which was simply being aggro bullies.

My chunk of the world has never really enjoyed any kinda serious problem with open racist dickheads, for the most part. Lots of Nazis at hardcore and punk shows in the late '80s, but they were mostly imports from larger metropolitan areas. Every so often a few white-power dudes blow into town and get everyone's panties in a wad, but almost without fail they're either gone or assimilated within six months. Usually, they don't face enough organized opposition to martyr themselves, but receive severe enough beatings when they try to get tough that they're caught in a conundrum, and either move on, or just grow their hair out, start drinking beer, and sort of apologize for all the Nazis business that I guess seemed like a good idea at the time. As best as I can tell, even this delightful little cycle hasn't played out in these parts for years.

Oh, and every so often it seems like someone starts an ARA chapter, just because, like Food Not Bombs and Critical Mass, that's what you do, when you're hanging in that scene, but it usually dries up without a strong (open) racist faction to confront. Guess we're lucky in this regard, though I must admit at parts of my life I've found all the drama and consternation entertaining, and have not been above jumping into the fray myself on occasion.

Anyway, Burzum isn't a "troll attempt," and I'm neither a Nazi nor a Satanist, and for that matter I'm not particularly inclined to do much with danger but try to avoid it. Burzum is simply my style.

Shut the **** up Hedge. You didn't even read what he wrote. You just twisted his words to suit your ideas of being Mr. White Guy Who Wants to Save the World from Itself.

Try reality for breakfast next time. .

Actually, Don raised word for word the most common arguements against what we do. They are tired and ALOT of people are sick of them. I'm not and I would have chosen to answer a different way.

However you might understand how having stock answers to stock arguements gets tiresome.




I promise you there are people in your organization that have done things equally repulsive as some of the things the people you are fighting against have done. That's reality. You can shove that 'the world is either black or white' crap where the sun doesn't shine.

Edit: I'm not implying that you're group commits hate crimes, only that I doubt everyone hands' in it are squeaky clean.

Your right, quite often the law gets broken in the technical sense of the word. However, if you think I'm an honest man take this for what its worth:

In the course of 19 years of anti-fascist actvisism, 14 with the outfit I'm in now, I've never done anything that I wouldnt want my mother to know about. At 35 its weird to invoke ones mom, but none the less there it is.

Specifically, I have never contiencanced arson, assassination, attacks on the defensless, or rape as tactics.

As far as the enemy goes: A neo-nazi is a soldier in an identifible uniform. Yes they have been attacked without warning. Yes they have been attacked with weapons when they were not expecting them, yes we dont fight fair. Thats War. In war you fight you enemy as unfairly as possible. Every soldier knows that. However, we are talking about an identifible enemy. These people have garbed themselves as soldiers, enagaged in violence and pledged their lives to a cause that includes genocide. Their consent to engage is combat is in my book clearly established.

In war, one may also commit crimes. I would like to keep our collective hands squeeky clean of thoose. So for instance I wont burn their houses down, or go after thgeir kids or non-combatant dependents, I wont use torture to gain information, etc.

The end does not EVER justify certain means. In fact the means one uses determine the ends that one will reach. So I strongly believe in fighting with a strong dose of humanity. I would rather loose and die then win and loose my way.

My project of being "out" on this board is many faceted:

1) Bullshido, in and of itself is a valid social movement that I support on its own merits. I consider participation here to be part of my Anarchist political work. As much as this may make Phrost choke on his beverage, I see some shades of decentralized direct action taking place here on a grassroots level. Thats cool. I'd like to take my work more seriously in the future and continue to be a valued member of this movement and community.

2) The Antifascist movement needs to find ways to make the public at large understand and value what it does. We need to humanize ourselves in the eyes of people. This is critical to our survival.

When people like JNP, an ex-marine, married fellow, probably fairly conservative (I noticed while rolling with you that you dont curse), knows us, and knows that we are good people, regardless of whether or not he agrees with us, it makes us harder to murder. I get harder to frame for crimes, or disappear, or slander, when people who disagree with me know I'm not an animal or a lunatic.

3) I'm sick of the left having no muscle. Being terrorized. Whinning. Living up to conservatives stereotypes of parlor pinks. Coffee shop revolutionaries that cringe at doing what must be done. You know what I mean. I'm Tired of it.

4) The dirty word --- recruiting. Yup, I'm out to get more people invovled. There I said it.

5) Improve my personal practice in fighting. Improve my groups collective practice in fighting.

6) Have fun. I've met some nice people here. It's good times. The ultramega will be a blast and a fun road trip. I'm also hoping to start sponsoring Austin TDs on a regular basis. Except I want to change them to make them more family and community oriented. And call them SparBQs

Probably some of this discussion should go to sociocide. There are some questions of theory I'd like to discuss with the AFA comrades (articles fromthe 90s, the bussiness with Arsenal magazine back a few years ago, ThreeWayFight theory, etc) Somebody might want to stub a thread or too there. If folks from AFA want to stick the bullshido Antifascist Goon Squad tag in their sigs they are welcome too so long as they are a serving or veteran Antifa Actvist that works on the street level. You know what I mean.

So far as Kelsoe and company... I'll be suprised if we ever here from them again on this matter. I'm sure they read this. I'm sure they dont want any. We'll keep you all posted if things change. I doubt they will

Where I live the ARA types are not wantonly violent, at least not currently. When I typed that I was thinking back 10 or so years to a small group that took up shop locally and hurt a handful of undeserving people, some pretty seriously.

One average kid walking along downtown was beat unrecognizable for wearing an Italian soccer jersey and not being able to explain whether its supporters were fascists or leftists (his assailants didn't know either - I asked them - just that some Italian soccer teams were supported by racists) (I remember hearing the shirt was a gift from a cousin or something and the kid didn't even follow the sport), and I saw the aftermath of an altercation where two random guys were attacked with some kinda keychain prong on the suspicion they coulda been boneheads (they weren't, nor even skinheads of any flavor, just clean-cut dudes with short hair at a punk show) with one of 'em getting most of his scalp ripped off.

Anyway, after a few incidents like this the guys took their "direct action" somewhere else, when it became clear their loud lefty sloganeering was no longer masking their true agenda, which was simply being aggro bullies.

My chunk of the world has never really enjoyed any kinda serious problem with open racist dickheads, for the most part. Lots of Nazis at hardcore and punk shows in the late '80s, but they were mostly imports from larger metropolitan areas. Every so often a few white-power dudes blow into town and get everyone's panties in a wad, but almost without fail they're either gone or assimilated within six months. Usually, they don't face enough organized opposition to martyr themselves, but receive severe enough beatings when they try to get tough that they're caught in a conundrum, and either move on, or just grow their hair out, start drinking beer, and sort of apologize for all the Nazis business that I guess seemed like a good idea at the time. As best as I can tell, even this delightful little cycle hasn't played out in these parts for years.

Oh, and every so often it seems like someone starts an ARA chapter, just because, like Food Not Bombs and Critical Mass, that's what you do, when you're hanging in that scene, but it usually dries up without a strong (open) racist faction to confront. Guess we're lucky in this regard, though I must admit at parts of my life I've found all the drama and consternation entertaining, and have not been above jumping into the fray myself on occasion.

Anyway, Burzum isn't a "troll attempt," and I'm neither a Nazi nor a Satanist, and for that matter I'm not particularly inclined to do much with danger but try to avoid it. Burzum is simply my style.

Where are you from? Also, can you pm me with the details on some of the attacks in question, I'm not adverse to holding people accountable for the stupid even 10 years later

Where are you from? Also, can you pm me with the details on some of the attacks in question, I'm not adverse to holding people accountable for the stupid even 10 years later
No offense, but if you really want the public at large (whatever that is) to appreciate your schtick, one thing you might want to work on would be backing away from the culture of denouncement, finger-pointing and general witch-hunt mentality permeating the current radical left. And, if you're going to continue to use those stock answers, find someone who writes better rhetoric. Say, you ever wonder why those same questions keep getting asked? Maybe it's because your boilerplate does a ****-poor job of actually answering them.

God forbid we should denounce people who are, by your own description, douchebags.

One average kid walking along downtown was beat unrecognizable for wearing an Italian soccer jersey and not being able to explain whether its supporters were fascists or leftists (his assailants didn't know either - I asked them - just that some Italian soccer teams were supported by racists) (I remember hearing the shirt was a gift from a cousin or something and the kid didn't even follow the sport), and I saw the aftermath of an altercation where two random guys were attacked with some kinda keychain prong on the suspicion they coulda been boneheads (they weren't, nor even skinheads of any flavor, just clean-cut dudes with short hair at a punk show) with one of 'em getting most of his scalp ripped off.

Anyway, after a few incidents like this the guys took their "direct action" somewhere else, when it became clear their loud lefty sloganeering was no longer masking their true agenda, which was simply being aggro bullies.

Yeah, that sucks ass. Sounds purely like assholes lloking for an excuse to attack someone, and that they didn't even dimly understand the 'football politics' they used as an excuse. As far as I know, there are no teams that are fascist or leftist per se, just some that have higher concentrations of fascists amongst their supporters. Even when I was in Scotland, there were a number of fascists who were Rangers supporters, but the vast majority were not and it would have been totally retarded to attack someone simply for wearing a Rangers jersey (at least from a political perspective). Likewise, I think Lazio in Italy has a lot of fascist supporters (and Livorno lots of communist supporters), but I doubt most fans of those teams subscribe to those politics. And over on this side of the ocean, none of that even matters. It would be kind of like a European kid attacking someone on the basis of LA gang colour stuff or something....


Burzum is simply my style.

What does Burzum consist of as a style? Burning down churches and ambushing former friends /band-mates with a shotgun?

What does Burzum consist of as a style? Burning down churches and ambushing former friends /band-mates with a shotgun?
Perhaps.

God forbid we should denounce people who are, by your own description, douchebags.
For reference purposes, I suggest listening the Minutemen song "Joe McCarthy's Ghost" and the Fugazi song "Great Cop." Hey, how does it feel when the Abyss stares back, anyway?

Antifa, I do agree with what you and your organization are doing. I firmly believe that racists or neo-nazis have absolutely nothing positive to offer our society. Furthermore, I also believe there's nothing wrong with handing down a beatdown on any person who chooses to join an organization that persecutes individuals simply because of their skin color or belief system.

Occasionally I post with my asshole filter in the off position. Suffice to say that I sincerely regret making that post. I would have deleted it, but I'm a firm believer in standing up to my mistakes. Hedge's youthful enthusiasm rubbed me the wrong way, and I overreacted. It would be nice if I was mature enough not to do that at 38, but it seems I am not. Still working on that whole growing up thing.

I'd be honored if you and Hedge allow me to train with you again. Despite my earlier diatribe, I would like to help and the most I can offer right now is to be a (hopefully) good training partner.

ps. I curse like a sailor. I just tone it down when I meet people for the first time. I'm also a huge asshole, but my saving grace is I'm slightly obsessed with being fair to people.

I personally don't. It's an important thing to do and such, but i'll stick to my specialty and leave that to people who are good at it, seeing as the left already has plenty of people who are enamored of talking.

I can see you aren't 'enamored of talking.'

As far as the enemy goes: A neo-nazi is a soldier in an identifible uniform. Yes they have been attacked without warning. Yes they have been attacked with weapons when they were not expecting them, yes we dont fight fair. Thats War. In war you fight you enemy as unfairly as possible. Every soldier knows that. However, we are talking about an identifible enemy. These people have garbed themselves as soldiers, enagaged in violence and pledged their lives to a cause that includes genocide. Their consent to engage is combat is in my book clearly established.



When I was a teen I was walking through a shopping mall with some mates when I noticed a young dad talking quite rough to his 2 or 3 year old kid. The kid had dropped it's bag of lollies and instead of the dad just picking up the bag, he had this little kid by the wrist and twisting the kid's wrist painfully was yelling "pick it up! I SAID pick it up!"

The little kid seemed really distraught. It was giving me the shits, I got really mad over it...so I went over, slammed into the guy - knocking him over - then grabbed him by the hair and the wrist and started yelling "why don't you pick it up you little ****! ILeave the kid alone...pick on someone your own size...blah blah" my mates thought this was cool. I thought this was cool. The guy, looking up and seeing a bunch of guys around him didn't even try to fight back. He just picked up the lolly bag, scooped up his kid and ran off. I felt like a hero...I had really showed that slop of **** a lesson, right?

But then this lady sitting at a bench said "that was really dumb...he'll take it out on the kid now"

That really made me realise that there are ways to battle certain attitudes and mentalities and while some have immediate effects...the effects are not long term and could make matters worse.

Can I ask a questione here? If a skin head beats black guys and you one day drive past and beat the skinhead...will this stop him beating on black guys?

That specific question aside, how does what you do create a solution?
I'm not judging or putting you down by the way...Its a sincere question.
RT